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I created an account to say this

I am a survivor of abuse

I tried to type up a longer, more detailed post but it got too hard. The bottom line is the following

There's no such thing as universal feelings, reactions, desires, needs that all victims share. Each one is an individual who suffered alone and carries the unique scars that stay with them and each one will react to future situations in life in their own way.

Therefore, there is no single response to abuse that will leave all victims feeling safe, secure, validated, supported, closure and everything else all the well meaning people here want to give them.

However, I think there is a single response that would leave all victims feeling further pain and trauma and that is "It can't be."

Rabbi Shimon Russell - How to Safeguard and Protect our Children

https://youtu.be/fefqSvXf0JI


« Last edited by Yehuda57 on January 12, 2022, 05:44:00 PM »

Author Topic: Chaim Walder dies  (Read 43086 times)

Online YitzyS

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Re: Chaim Walder dies
« Reply #120 on: December 27, 2021, 07:44:20 PM »
I think your attitude is commendable, and comes from the right place, which is more than I can say for most eager to rip the man apart. But in addition to what @Euclid eloquently responded, I'll add that the reason abusers are able to abuse so many before they are found out is at least in part because so many are so slow to believe victims when they do come forward, even for the most noble of reasons.

I'll note there was no thread discussing this matter until he was no longer alive, despite it being one of the biggest stories in the frum world over the past while. I've considered starting a thread just asking why it didn't exist. I'm genuinely curious, even if I think we were better off without it.

As I said before, I don't think every DDFer needs to protest individually, but when the "talk of the town" is to whitewash his actions just because he is no longer alive, that is sending a loud and clear message to his victims, and in turn ensuring the next abuser's victims remain silent and cause even more to get hurt.

And as for waiting for rabanim to issue such statements, sad to say that hasn't really happened till now, and it's tough to envision a day it does happen.

Imagine a court case where the pews were filled with supporters of the victims rather than the accused.
Eloquently said, as usual. But although every notion you said it 100 percent true, you still cannot rush to judge someone. Just imagine if someone made up allegations about you or someone in your family. Would you still say that it is imperative to send a strong message immediately without having the facts fully explored?

Again, this is a terribly sad situation any way you slice it. But we must follow Daas Torah and halacha when it comes to lashon harah, and we cannot make justifications ourselves, even if they make so much sense.

Offline WonderingYid

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Re: Chaim Walder dies
« Reply #121 on: December 27, 2021, 07:44:40 PM »
I am thankfully not proficient in the field, but at the recent Agudah convention, Rav Elephant and Rav Lopiansky indicated that there are rabbonim who specialize in these things. (They said that just as some rabbonim are professional in Choshen Mishpat and some in Even Haezer, a rov who is not a professional in researching abuse cases should contact one that is to do the investigation.)
I don't hear any big Rabbis talking about this. Silence speaks louder then words...

When there's bugs in orange juice I hear everyone talking...

Offline WonderingYid

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Re: Chaim Walder dies
« Reply #122 on: December 27, 2021, 07:44:57 PM »
Eloquently said, as usual. But although every notion you said it 100 percent true, you still cannot rush to judge someone. Just imagine if someone made up allegations about you or someone in your family. Would you still say that it is imperative to send a strong message?

Again, this is a terribly sad situation any way you slice it. But we must follow Daas Torah and halacha when it comes to lashon harah, and we cannot make justifications ourselves, even if they make so much sense.
I don't hear any big Rabbis talking about this. Silence speaks louder then words...

When there's bugs in orange juice I hear everyone talking...

Offline Yehuda57

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Re: Chaim Walder dies
« Reply #123 on: December 27, 2021, 08:18:47 PM »
Eloquently said, as usual. But although every notion you said it 100 percent true, you still cannot rush to judge someone. Just imagine if someone made up allegations about you or someone in your family. Would you still say that it is imperative to send a strong message immediately without having the facts fully explored?

Again, this is a terribly sad situation any way you slice it. But we must follow Daas Torah and halacha when it comes to lashon harah, and we cannot make justifications ourselves, even if they make so much sense.
You're right, of course, there can not be a rush to judgement. More than 20 cases is not rushed.

I'm not in favor of mob justice, or the likes of public walls of shame. Sure, most listed are guilty as sin. But there are a few famous cases of false accusations. Almost always, the false ones have a single accuser, and the real cases will end up with multiple victims speaking up after the initial one takes the plunge.

Of course, there is a danger of swinging too far into the "believe all women/victims" side, but it would be nice if the default communal attitude was to bend over backwards to find ways to be sensitive to victims in the way it does now for the accused.
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Re: Chaim Walder dies
« Reply #124 on: December 27, 2021, 09:28:13 PM »
This goes beyond CW himself: our community needs to have a zero tolerance attitude towards sexual abuse. And it needs to be made clear, beyond a shadow of doubt, that we will not and can not stand for abuse. This allows for vulnerable people to come forth if/when they're abused and not suffer in silence.

If we circle the wagons every time someone famous/well-known is accused of sexual impropriety, then we are just shooting ourselves in the foot. There are far, far, far, far more people in our community who have had their lives ruined by abusers, then there were people being falsely accused of abuse. Vulnerable people need to know we have their back.
I take issue with this sentence, we should not be comparing them when deciding how to deal with the accused. We shouldn't allow an innocent person accused to have their life ruined because someone else ruined the lives of real victims.
I wonder what people who type "u" instead of "you" do with all their free time.

Offline S209

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Re: Chaim Walder dies
« Reply #125 on: December 27, 2021, 09:39:17 PM »
I take issue with this sentence, we should not be comparing them when deciding how to deal with the accused. We shouldn't allow an innocent person accused to have their life ruined because someone else ruined the lives of real victims.
We shouldnít use the fact that one event is rare while one is unfortunately quite common as a guiding instinct into whether we believe it?

Offline Euclid

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Re: Chaim Walder dies
« Reply #126 on: December 27, 2021, 09:41:28 PM »
I take issue with this sentence, we should not be comparing them when deciding how to deal with the accused. We shouldn't allow an innocent person accused to have their life ruined because someone else ruined the lives of real victims.
What's happening now is the reverse of that. We're sacrificing the lives of current and future victims in order to whitewash a possible guilty person.

Offline mgarfin

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Re: Chaim Walder dies
« Reply #127 on: December 27, 2021, 09:50:09 PM »
In the letter he left he talks about Rabbi Silmon.
Contrary to Rabbi Eliahu He's a prominent rabbi in the Bnei Brak.

Is it known his stance on the issue

Offline avromie7

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Re: Chaim Walder dies
« Reply #128 on: December 27, 2021, 09:50:50 PM »
We shouldnít use the fact that one event is rare while one is unfortunately quite common as a guiding instinct into whether we believe it?
How would you feel being an innocent man accused of something so horrible, but the public feels it's worth feeding you to the dogs because others were hurt by real abusers? It doesn't help you that there are unfortunately many real victims. This is the thinking I try to use and it's why you may see what looks like me defending the accused (not limited to sexual abuse).

Would I allow them near my kids? No way, but they deserve the right to not have an innocent life ruined regardless of how many innocent lives were ruined by real horrible people.
I wonder what people who type "u" instead of "you" do with all their free time.

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Re: Chaim Walder dies
« Reply #129 on: December 27, 2021, 09:58:56 PM »
We shouldnít use the fact that one event is rare while one is unfortunately quite common as a guiding instinct into whether we believe it?
No. Why should we?
Feelings don't care about your facts

Offline shmoe joe

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Re: Chaim Walder dies
« Reply #130 on: December 27, 2021, 10:01:35 PM »
Even a non 613 understands that youíre innocent until PROVEN guilty. Itís very understandable a person that was involved in so many cases helped so many people was involved in sholem beiyas cases that there will be people upset at him and willing to make up stories Iím not saying theyíre not true I donít know all Iím saying Is that this possibility needs to be considered
give some love (likes) to a brother!

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Re: Chaim Walder dies
« Reply #131 on: December 27, 2021, 10:03:08 PM »
This is the thinking I try to use and it's why you may see what looks like me defending the accused.
I donít think you look like youíre ďdefending the accusedĒ. Of course innocent person having their lives ruined is terrible and *does* happen (I know personally of a very sad case where someone was accused by a minor, lost his job and his reputation, and then the alleged victim retracted their charge and testified that they were told to accuse him as part of a custody battle).

However, itís important to note that false allegations are very rare. Abuse, on the other hand, isnít rare at all. So when a person is accused, Iím not sure standard presumptions of innocence should be adopted, at least vis a vis public perception. According to just about any expert in the field I have spoken with the percentage of accusations that are shown to be completely baseless is minuscule. The percentage of abuse that is ever reported, OTOH, is just the tip of the iceberg.

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Re: Chaim Walder dies
« Reply #132 on: December 27, 2021, 10:04:23 PM »
No. Why should we?
Because one event is far more likely to occur than the other, as proven over and over?

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Re: Chaim Walder dies
« Reply #133 on: December 27, 2021, 10:05:48 PM »
Because one event is far more likely to occur than the other, as proven over and over?
That is precisely what Dan lekaf zechus is.
Memories last forever, make them while you can.

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Re: Chaim Walder dies
« Reply #134 on: December 27, 2021, 10:06:17 PM »
That is precisely what Dan lekaf zechus is.
Youíre automatically being dan lekaf chov of the accuser if you donít believe it. So what now?

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Re: Chaim Walder dies
« Reply #135 on: December 27, 2021, 10:07:11 PM »
Youíre automatically being dan lekaf chov of the accuser if you donít believe it. So what now?
Palginan neemanus

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Re: Chaim Walder dies
« Reply #136 on: December 27, 2021, 10:07:32 PM »
Does hilchos loshon hora require one to publicly take a stance defending one side over the other, or just to quietly believe/not believe?

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Re: Chaim Walder dies
« Reply #137 on: December 27, 2021, 10:08:44 PM »
I donít think you look like youíre ďdefending the accusedĒ. Of course innocent person having their lives ruined is terrible and *does* happen (I know personally of a very sad case where someone was accused by a minor, lost his job and his reputation, and then the alleged victim retracted their charge and testified that they were told to accuse him as part of a custody battle).

However, itís important to note that false allegations are very rare. Abuse, on the other hand, isnít rare at all. So when a person is accused, Iím not sure standard presumptions of innocence should be adopted, at least vis a vis public perception. According to just about any expert in the field I have spoken with the percentage of accusations that are shown to be completely baseless is minuscule. The percentage of abuse that is ever reported, OTOH, is just the tip of the iceberg.
None of this helps an innocent person thrown to the dogs. I understand the point of helping the victims and I'm fully on board, but an innocent man shouldn't have his life ruined because the accusation has a statistically high chance of being true.
I wonder what people who type "u" instead of "you" do with all their free time.

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Re: Chaim Walder dies
« Reply #138 on: December 27, 2021, 10:12:21 PM »
Youíre automatically being dan lekaf chov of the accuser if you donít believe it. So what now?
My point was to your isolated point. The frequency of occurrence is a non factor in Dan lekaf zechus.
Either way, I haven't heard from any accusor, I've heard other say there were accusors. I also don't believe I heard his side more than a suicide note.


I pray it's not true, and have no way of knowing if it is, so I leave it be. That's just my approach.
Memories last forever, make them while you can.

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