Chaim Walder dies

[AsherO]

All humans who experience disturbing events should be validated. Do you believe the trauma of a random unwanted touching to be the same as that of a long term molestation?

I don’t, but there are cases where (perhaps due to conditioning or some other unknown variable) a singular/isolated traumatic event can significantly affect the the trajectory of someone’s life. Writing it off as “it only happened once” so it’s “no big deal” does a disservice to the survivor of that experience. Not saying you’re saying that, but comparing more and less trauma doesn’t accomplish anything.

There’s another factor here, and that is that in some cases the perpetrator of such abuse starts with these “small” incidents and might “work their way up” from there (perhaps with other subjects) if they aren’t confronted/stopped.

[flyingace]

I don’t, but there are cases where (perhaps due to conditioning or some other unknown variable) a singular/isolated traumatic event can significantly affect the the trajectory of someone’s life. Writing it off as “it only happened once” so it’s “no big deal” does a disservice to the survivor of that experience. Not saying you’re saying that, but comparing more and less trauma doesn’t accomplish anything.

There’s another factor here, and that is that in some cases the perpetrator of such abuse starts with these “small” incidents and might “work their way up” from there (perhaps with other subjects) if they aren’t confronted/stopped.

I agree to all of the above.

[Yehuda57]

We don't need a trauma scorecard for abuse

[eric_the_red]

Many people experience flashing, grabbing and unwanted bumping on the streets and buses of New York. Granted a fellow mispallel in shul is more disturbing than a nutty stranger, but it is vastly different than the ongoing and long term trauma of molestation.

Sadly, this is much worse than you think.  This is 'grooming' behavior by the predator.  It's a long-term plan - if he gets away with a little grabbing, the monster will escalate and keep escalating...

I can tell you that a fellow mispalel got overly touchy with me once when I was maybe 9 or 10.  I was confused, but my father observed the behavior (thank Gd!) and put a stop to it.   If he hadn't, who can say what might have happened.

[ExGingi]

I can tell you that a fellow mispalel got overly touchy with me once when I was maybe 9 or 10.  I was confused, but my father observed the behavior (thank Gd!) and put a stop to it.   If he hadn't, who can say what might have happened.

Sounds exactly like what I observed. You can imagine that if I was unsure, the kid was definitely confused. The kid's father davened with a different minyan, so luckily I noticed it and with the help of another mispalel put a stop to it.

[EliJelly]

and with the help of another mispalel put a stop to it.

Curious how, pushed him away? Showed him the door?

[koplonko]

Curious how, pushed him away? Showed him the door?

“Kick him where he wants to touch you” 👌

[ExGingi]

Curious how, pushed him away? Showed him the door?

I can't recall exactly at the moment. It might have been a ferocious stare, possibly accompanied by a few words to make it clear that he cannot be seated on the bench next to the kid.

[JlmBoi]

Many people experience flashing, grabbing and unwanted bumping on the streets and buses of New York. Granted a fellow mispallel in shul is more disturbing than a nutty stranger,

I believe both of these situations happen mamish all the time. The difference here is the second it's in a shul, is there not more we can do? The second we know someone (all the more so if he is part of our community) has pedophilic attractions (especially if we see he isn't controlling them) is it enough just to alleviate what we see under our noses? Such a person is a grave danger to have walking around! If only there was a place to go with such information. This ties in to a whole different discussion of the best way society should deal with people who have these attractions in general.
The other comment I have here is something Yakov Horowitz stresses all the time. Kids need to feel comfortable with their parents so they can share if they feel anything is wrong or off or if ChV something happens. They need to feel acceptance, trust, and validation of their feelings in general so they feel secure and that they will be heard with care and love. As a kid I was inappropriatly touched and nearly worse than that, BH I had the seichel to know something was wrong and run away. I never told my parents, I was too scared I would be blamed or they would react some other negative way towards me. BH it wasn't in a setting that I would go back to nor was it anyone close to me. I don't want to think what would have happened if the abuser had a second or more chances.

[JlmBoi]

I created an account to say this

I am a survivor of abuse

I tried to type up a longer, more detailed post but it got too hard. The bottom line is the following

There's no such thing as universal feelings, reactions, desires, needs that all victims share. Each one is an individual who suffered alone and carries the unique scars that stay with them and each one will react to future situations in life in their own way.

Therefore, there is no single response to abuse that will leave all victims feeling safe, secure, validated, supported, closure and everything else all the well meaning people here want to give them.

However, I think there is a single response that would leave all victims feeling further pain and trauma and that is "It can't be."

I'm so sorry you had to experience this. Thank you for sharing. Your voice is so important for everyone to hear.

[AsherO]

The other comment I have here is something Yakov Horowitz stresses all the time. Kids need to feel comfortable with their parents so they can share if they feel anything is wrong or off or if ChV something happens. They need to feel acceptance, trust, and validation of their feelings in general so they feel secure and that they will be heard with care and love.

Easier said than done, but still something to actively work towards.

As a kid I was inappropriatly touched and nearly worse than that, BH I had the seichel to know something was wrong and run away. I never told my parents, I was too scared I would be blamed or they would react some other negative way towards me. BH it wasn't in a setting that I would go back to nor was it anyone close to me. I don't want to think what would have happened if the abuser had a second or more chances.

Thank you for the courage and strength to share what happened to you. You’re an inspiration, in that you are no longer scared of anyone here blaming you or reacting negatively, and that deserves recognition.

Yes, it could have been worse, but as you say that doesn’t make it even remotely okay.

[JlmBoi]

Easier said than done, but still something to actively work towards.

Thank you for the courage and strength to share what happened to you. You’re an inspiration, in that you are no longer scared of anyone here blaming you or reacting negatively, and that deserves recognition.

Yes, it could have been worse, but as you say that doesn’t make it even remotely okay.

Thanks for your kind works.
Seems like many here don't realise how common these things are. I'm personally aware of so many cases that happened across a wide range of communities. This is very real and unfortunately not much has been done to stop it.
The point of my sharing was that maybe some here would stop and think honestly for a second, "would my child be comfortable to come to me with that?". If not, which is probably pretty common, as you said its easier said than done, at least make sure they have someone in their life they are comfortable speaking to and sharing things with. This can really be the difference between life or death, or between a healthy life and one spent on battling darkness.

[aygart]

I created an account to say this

I am a survivor of abuse

I tried to type up a longer, more detailed post but it got too hard. The bottom line is the following

There's no such thing as universal feelings, reactions, desires, needs that all victims share. Each one is an individual who suffered alone and carries the unique scars that stay with them and each one will react to future situations in life in their own way.

Therefore, there is no single response to abuse that will leave all victims feeling safe, secure, validated, supported, closure and everything else all the well meaning people here want to give them.

However, I think there is a single response that would leave all victims feeling further pain and trauma and that is "It can't be."

Wow! Stay strong! You have our support!

[aygart]

The other comment I have here is something Yakov Horowitz stresses all the time. Kids need to feel comfortable with their parents so they can share if they feel anything is wrong or off or if ChV something happens. They need to feel acceptance, trust, and validation of their feelings in general so they feel secure and that they will be heard with care and love. As a kid I was inappropriatly touched and nearly worse than that, BH I had the seichel to know something was wrong and run away. I never told my parents, I was too scared I would be blamed or they would react some other negative way towards me. BH it wasn't in a setting that I would go back to nor was it anyone close to me. I don't want to think what would have happened if the abuser had a second or more chances.

I was told by an LSW about a study done where they showed a schoolyard of children to convicted abusers and they were able to pick out from the crowd children who were from non-functioning families. They sense who is vulnerable to their manipulation. That is obviously imperfect since there are victims from functioning families as well.

[AsherO]

I was told by an LSW about a study done where they showed a schoolyard of children to convicted abusers and they were able to pick out from the crowd children who were from non-functioning families. They sense who is vulnerable to their manipulation. That is obviously imperfect since there are victims from functioning families as well.

I believe a made a similar point upthread.

[VacationLover]

I was told by an LSW about a study done where they showed a schoolyard of children to convicted abusers and they were able to pick out from the crowd children who were from non-functioning families. They sense who is vulnerable to their manipulation. That is obviously imperfect since there are victims from functioning families as well.

What's the point they are trying to make? That people should look after kids from non functioning families? Or that parents should know how important a functioning family is?
What can we do to help this issue by knowing this?

[AsherO]

That people should look after kids from non functioning families? Or that parents should know how important a functioning family is?

Both these points are a good start. Any other suggestions?

[gozalim]

What's the point they are trying to make? That people should look after kids from non functioning families? Or that parents should know how important a functioning family is?
What can we do to help this issue by knowing this?

this reinforces that

The point of my sharing was that maybe some here would stop and think honestly for a second, "would my child be comfortable to come to me with that?". If not, which is probably pretty common, as you said its easier said than done, at least make sure they have someone in their life they are comfortable speaking to and sharing things with. This can really be the difference between life or death, or between a healthy life and one spent on battling darkness.

this helps double:
1. to deal with once anything comes up
2. that kid is less likely to be a victim in the 1st place

[jye]

I was told by an LSW about a study done where they showed a schoolyard of children to convicted abusers and they were able to pick out from the crowd children who were from non-functioning families. They sense who is vulnerable to their manipulation. That is obviously imperfect since there are victims from functioning families as well.

According to Norman Blumenthal there are two types of children that are especially vulnerable; those with developmental issues/ disabilities, and those who are actually high functioning but are thrill and danger seekers. The latter are more likely to respond to an abuser who wants to show them his hideout etc.

[AsherO]

According to Norman Blumenthal there are two types of children that are especially vulnerable; those with developmental issues/ disabilities, and those who are actually high functioning but are thrill and danger seekers. The latter are more likely to respond to an abuser who wants to show them his hideout etc.

It sounds to me like aygart described a third category, but there can be overlaps.