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I created an account to say this

I am a survivor of abuse

I tried to type up a longer, more detailed post but it got too hard. The bottom line is the following

There's no such thing as universal feelings, reactions, desires, needs that all victims share. Each one is an individual who suffered alone and carries the unique scars that stay with them and each one will react to future situations in life in their own way.

Therefore, there is no single response to abuse that will leave all victims feeling safe, secure, validated, supported, closure and everything else all the well meaning people here want to give them.

However, I think there is a single response that would leave all victims feeling further pain and trauma and that is "It can't be."

Rabbi Shimon Russell - How to Safeguard and Protect our Children

https://youtu.be/fefqSvXf0JI


« Last edited by Yehuda57 on January 12, 2022, 05:44:00 PM »

Author Topic: Chaim Walder dies  (Read 58740 times)

Offline S209

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Re: Chaim Walder dies
« Reply #140 on: December 27, 2021, 10:15:09 PM »
None of this helps an innocent person thrown to the dogs. I understand the point of helping the victims and I'm fully on board, but an innocent man shouldn't have his life ruined because the accusation has a statistically high chance of being true.
Key word: innocent. How can we know? And what should we use as a guiding metric to determine whether one is indeed innocent? What if thereís a 99%+ chance of it being true? (IINM once a person has multiple independent accusers the odds of them being innocent plummets. I donít recall a case other than the famous McMartin scandal where such a person ended up being cleared of wrongdoing.)

Offline S209

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Re: Chaim Walder dies
« Reply #141 on: December 27, 2021, 10:16:52 PM »
My point was to your isolated point. The frequency of occurrence is a non factor in Dan lekaf zechus.
Are you sure about that?
Either way, I haven't heard from any accusor, I've heard other say there were accusors. I also don't believe I heard his side more than a suicide note.

I pray it's not true, and have no way of knowing if it is, so I leave it be. That's just my approach.
Thatís great, but what if you are hurting actual living people by doing that? Are you ok with contributing to their ongoing and probably lifelong suffering?

Offline avromie7

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Re: Chaim Walder dies
« Reply #142 on: December 27, 2021, 10:20:04 PM »
Key word: innocent. How can we know? And what should we use as a guiding metric to determine whether one is indeed innocent? What if thereís a 99%+ chance of it being true? (IINM once a person has multiple independent accusers the odds of them being innocent plummets. I donít recall a case other than the famous McMartin scandal where such a person ended up being cleared of wrongdoing.)
Why is the ratio of innocently accused to real bad actors relevant? Again, try to think of this from the viewpoint of the accused, why should his life be ruined because the statistics aren't on his side?
I wonder what people who type "u" instead of "you" do with all their free time.

Offline Euclid

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Re: Chaim Walder dies
« Reply #143 on: December 27, 2021, 10:22:07 PM »
Why is the ratio of innocently accused to real bad actors relevant? Again, try to think of this from the viewpoint of the accused, why should his life be ruined because the statistics aren't on his side?
I totally get this sentiment, but you're looking at it in a vacuum and I don't think that's the proper approach. It reminds me of the trolley problem.

Offline aygart

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Re: Chaim Walder dies
« Reply #144 on: December 27, 2021, 10:24:00 PM »
Key word: innocent. How can we know? And what should we use as a guiding metric to determine whether one is indeed innocent? What if thereís a 99%+ chance of it being true? (IINM once a person has multiple independent accusers the odds of them being innocent plummets. I donít recall a case other than the famous McMartin scandal where such a person ended up being cleared of wrongdoing.)
Persistent accusations make a tremendous difference lhalacha and is called sani shumanei
Feelings don't care about your facts

Offline S209

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Re: Chaim Walder dies
« Reply #145 on: December 27, 2021, 10:25:54 PM »
Why is the ratio of innocently accused to real bad actors relevant? Again, try to think of this from the viewpoint of the accused, why should his life be ruined because the statistics aren't on his side?
The relevant ratio would be accused who are innocent vs. accused who are guilty. And while you are correct that just because ďstatisticsĒ does not a guilty man make, itís important to note that in each case there are going to be no winners, only losers. And Iím not convinced a man accused has it worse than a child/woman abused and scorned for her accusation. So the real question is this:

If an accusation is far more likely to be true than false, and either way one human will be subjected to a lot of suffering (ahem famous case from Lakewood forced to move ahem), which side should we be instinctively more inclined to believe? Remember, this isnít about jail time or actual punitive measures, only the way the community perceives and defends the respective characters.

Iím not saying I have answers, only questions, but something is broken either way. There is an insane amount of abuse, and while we have made a lot of headway, thereís still a ways to go. That doesnít specifically go for the Frum community, but for society as a whole.

Offline Yehuda57

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Re: Chaim Walder dies
« Reply #146 on: December 27, 2021, 10:28:08 PM »
There is no need for any individual to take a stance on anyone's guilt. You can tell a great deal by the general attitudes, actions, and speech of a community and its leaders.

Is the reaction to an accusation to offer as much support and encouragement to the victims while allowing for due process, or is the victim silenced, or worse, shamed and publicly discredited under the guise of due process?

Are there fundraisers for the victims or are you more likely to see fundraisers for the abuser's defense?

Is a generic Rabbinical statement bound to express care and concern for potential victims first and foremost and also making care to avoid jumping to conclusions, or are they more likely to be harshly critical or accusers and their methods of attaining justice, with maybe a passing mention of the safety of children?

Due process and protecting victims should not be mutually exclusive. Why does it seem that they are, with the erring always on the side of the accused?
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Offline aygart

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Re: Chaim Walder dies
« Reply #147 on: December 27, 2021, 10:28:52 PM »
The relevant ratio would be accused who are innocent vs. accused who are guilty. And while you are correct that just because ďstatisticsĒ does not a guilty man make, itís important to note that in each case there are going to be no winners, only losers. And Iím not convinced a man accused has it worse than a child/woman abused and scorned for her accusation. So the real question is this:

If an accusation is far more likely to be true than false, and either way one human will be subjected to a lot of suffering (ahem famous case from Lakewood forced to move ahem), which side should we be instinctively more inclined to believe? Remember, this isnít about jail time or actual punitive measures, only the way the community perceives and defends the respective characters.

Iím not saying I have answers, only questions, but something is broken either way. There is an insane amount of abuse, and while we have made a lot of headway, thereís still a ways to go. That doesnít specifically go for the Frum community, but for society as a whole.
There is a server that discusses this. It is called Chofetz Chaim. These are not the criteria.
Feelings don't care about your facts

Offline as2

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Re: Chaim Walder dies
« Reply #148 on: December 27, 2021, 10:31:57 PM »
Are you sure about that?Thatís great, but what if you are hurting actual living people by doing that? Are you ok with contributing to their ongoing and probably lifelong suffering?
While you may see it that way, not everyone does.
I've learned to live with my life choices.
Memories last forever, make them while you can.

Offline gozalim

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Re: Chaim Walder dies
« Reply #149 on: December 27, 2021, 10:34:04 PM »
How would you feel being an innocent man accused of something so horrible, but the public feels it's worth feeding you to the dogs because others were hurt by real abusers? It doesn't help you that there are unfortunately many real victims. This is the thinking I try to use and it's why you may see what looks like me defending the accused (not limited to sexual abuse).

Would I allow them near my kids? No way, but they deserve the right to not have an innocent life ruined regardless of how many innocent lives were ruined by real horrible people.
and everyone else's kids?

Offline Yehuda57

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Re: Chaim Walder dies
« Reply #150 on: December 27, 2021, 10:35:46 PM »
Also, I'm in no way saying our community is better or worse at dealing with this than any other. You point to a community and there are major scandals that have come up. Religious, secular, entertainment, academia, sports, and on and on. For every rabbi you paint as an enabler I'll show you five priests, professors, coaches, teachers, executives, etc.

We can only deal with our problems. Hence the talk of our community.
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Re: Chaim Walder dies
« Reply #151 on: December 27, 2021, 10:40:43 PM »
There is no need for any individual to take a stance on anyone's guilt. You can tell a great deal by the general attitudes, actions, and speech of a community and its leaders.

Is the reaction to an accusation to offer as much support and encouragement to the victims while allowing for due process, or is the victim silenced, or worse, shamed and publicly discredited under the guise of due process?

Are there fundraisers for the victims or are you more likely to see fundraisers for the abuser's defense?

Is a generic Rabbinical statement bound to express care and concern for potential victims first and foremost and also making care to avoid jumping to conclusions, or are they more likely to be harshly critical or accusers and their methods of attaining justice, with maybe a passing mention of the safety of children?

Due process and protecting victims should not be mutually exclusive. Why does it seem that they are, with the erring always on the side of the accused?
The leaders of any organization believe they can handle this internally, so it does not tarnish the organization. History has shown us every one of them have failed. They may have good intentions, but they are doomed to fail.

You're so far up Trump's a** you can see Giuliani's feet.  HT Baruch

Offline S209

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Re: Chaim Walder dies
« Reply #152 on: December 27, 2021, 10:42:11 PM »
https://www.thejewishstar.com/stories/still-screaming-is-anyone-listening,1584

Quote
I have never met a person who was as careful and as knowledgeable about the laws of Loshon Hora as an abuser. Indeed, part of their abusive behavior is to abuse and manipulate the laws of Loshon Hora to allow them to continue their behavior and their molestation.

Silence is not just unhelpful; silence is the ultimate collaborator and abettor to the crime of molestation!

Offline S209

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Re: Chaim Walder dies
« Reply #153 on: December 27, 2021, 10:43:00 PM »
While you may see it that way, not everyone does.
I've learned to live with my life choices.
See it what way? I only questioned. I have no answers.

Offline CountValentine

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Re: Chaim Walder dies
« Reply #154 on: December 27, 2021, 10:45:13 PM »
For every rabbi you paint as an enabler I'll show you five priests, professors, coaches, teachers, executives, etc.
Is this because a rabbi is five times less likely to commit these acts or these acts are being covered up?
You're so far up Trump's a** you can see Giuliani's feet.  HT Baruch

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Re: Chaim Walder dies
« Reply #155 on: December 27, 2021, 10:46:31 PM »
Is this because a rabbi is five times less likely to commit these acts or these acts are being covered up?
I understood it to mean simply because there are fewer rabbis in the world
״וזה כלל גדול: שישנא אדם כל דבר שקר. וכל מה שיוסיף שנאה לדרכי השקר Ė יוסיף אהבה לתורה.״ - אורחות צדיקים

Offline Yehuda57

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Re: Chaim Walder dies
« Reply #156 on: December 27, 2021, 10:47:50 PM »
Is this because a rabbi is five times less likely to commit these acts or these acts are being covered up?
It's a turn of phrase. There's way more than 5 per rabbi. Probably more like 10,000:1. I'm not good at math.
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Re: Chaim Walder dies
« Reply #157 on: December 27, 2021, 10:49:10 PM »
Would I allow them near my kids? No way, but they deserve the right to not have an innocent life ruined regardless of how many innocent lives were ruined by real horrible people.
If this person was a teacher, then if everyone thought the same way as you did his life is ruined. He would have no kids to teach. You just ruined the person's life while thinking you didn't.
You're so far up Trump's a** you can see Giuliani's feet.  HT Baruch

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Re: Chaim Walder dies
« Reply #158 on: December 27, 2021, 10:51:15 PM »
There is a server that discusses this. It is called Chofetz Chaim. These are not the criteria.
The sefer discusses what an individual is allowed to say and believe. I am talking about a communityís knee jerk reflexes and perception. Also, every case is different and one should be careful about being machmir on shmiras halashon while being meikel on pikuach nefesh. Itís important to have Rabbanim involved early and often. But while the dust is settling Iím not sure if the priority should always be to rush to publicly defend and stand by the *possibly* innocent person being accused more than the *possibly* innocent person being abused.

Offline Euclid

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Re: Chaim Walder dies
« Reply #159 on: December 27, 2021, 10:51:59 PM »
It's a turn of phrase. There's way more than 5 per rabbi. Probably more like 10,000:1. I'm not good at math.
1 professor, 1 priest, and 1 rabbi entered a bar. The bartender exclaimed - "what are the odds?! Did Yehuda57 write this joke??"