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I created an account to say this

I am a survivor of abuse

I tried to type up a longer, more detailed post but it got too hard. The bottom line is the following

There's no such thing as universal feelings, reactions, desires, needs that all victims share. Each one is an individual who suffered alone and carries the unique scars that stay with them and each one will react to future situations in life in their own way.

Therefore, there is no single response to abuse that will leave all victims feeling safe, secure, validated, supported, closure and everything else all the well meaning people here want to give them.

However, I think there is a single response that would leave all victims feeling further pain and trauma and that is "It can't be."

Rabbi Shimon Russell - How to Safeguard and Protect our Children

https://youtu.be/fefqSvXf0JI


« Last edited by Yehuda57 on January 12, 2022, 05:44:00 PM »

Author Topic: Chaim Walder dies  (Read 58743 times)

Offline gozalim

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Re: Chaim Walder dies
« Reply #160 on: December 27, 2021, 10:54:23 PM »
Youíre automatically being dan lekaf chov of the accuser if you donít believe it. So what now?
how about if all the accusers are anonymous?

Offline ExGingi

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Re: Chaim Walder dies
« Reply #161 on: December 27, 2021, 10:56:08 PM »
This subject is so painful to read about, and I have no answers. There a definitely innocent victims whose lives get shattered, and I am thinking also about the families of the abusers.

While I don't know how to deal with accusations, and thankfully it is not and has not been my job, I would like to offer what I once heard from a menahel in my son's yeshiva:

The abuse cases happen to those whose parents didn't talk to them in advance. Those who had talks with their parents about "the bees and the birds" and about urges and difficulties, are by far less likely to be victims of abuse.
I've been waiting over 5 years with bated breath for someone to say that!
-- Dan

Offline YitzyS

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Re: Chaim Walder dies
« Reply #162 on: December 27, 2021, 10:59:43 PM »
1 professor, 1 priest, and 1 rabbi entered a bar. The bartender exclaimed - "what are the odds?! Did Yehuda57 write this joke??"
No. Because if he did, they would've entered a pub.

Offline aygart

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Re: Chaim Walder dies
« Reply #163 on: December 27, 2021, 11:00:38 PM »
The sefer discusses what an individual is allowed to say and believe. I am talking about a communityís knee jerk reflexes and perception. Also, every case is different and one should be careful about being machmir on shmiras halashon while being meikel on pikuach nefesh. Itís important to have Rabbanim involved early and often. But while the dust is settling Iím not sure if the priority should always be to rush to publicly defend and stand by the *possibly* innocent person being accused more than the *possibly* innocent person being abused.
Learn it better. All of this is discussed.
Feelings don't care about your facts

Offline S209

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Re: Chaim Walder dies
« Reply #164 on: December 27, 2021, 11:01:40 PM »
Learn it better. All of this is discussed.
Can you point to a specific relevant Halacha?

Offline dasmo801

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Re: Chaim Walder dies
« Reply #165 on: December 27, 2021, 11:02:19 PM »
That is precisely what Dan lekaf zechus is.

Dan lekaf zechus is not absolute and depends to a large degree on who the accused is as well as the nature of the evidence. See Rabbenu Yoneh in Avos on that Mishna.
« Last Edit: December 27, 2021, 11:07:20 PM by dasmo801 »
Google Sheet with Lakewood Covid numbers in profile for those interested.

Offline aygart

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Re: Chaim Walder dies
« Reply #166 on: December 27, 2021, 11:22:50 PM »
Can you point to a specific relevant Halacha?
I would need to look it up but there is a significant amount of discussion among poskim about what to do when there is an accusation about a rov, melamed, shochet, chazan, etc. And they discuss various types of accusations including persistent rumors and multiple accusations.

These urges and people who don't control them are not a new phenomenon.
Feelings don't care about your facts

Offline S209

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Re: Chaim Walder dies
« Reply #167 on: December 27, 2021, 11:28:25 PM »
I would need to look it up but there is a significant amount of discussion among poskim about what to do when there is an accusation about a rov, melamed, shochet, chazan, etc. And they discuss various types of accusations including persistent rumors and multiple accusations.

These urges and people who don't control them are not a new phenomenon.
I would love to see more, because itís increasingly relevant unfortunately (or perhaps fortunately).

Offline aygart

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Re: Chaim Walder dies
« Reply #168 on: December 27, 2021, 11:34:10 PM »
I would love to see more, because itís increasingly relevant unfortunately (or perhaps fortunately).

There are so many Halachic treatises online for you to start with. It is mostly that you are hearing about it more.
Feelings don't care about your facts

Offline yzj

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Re: Chaim Walder dies
« Reply #169 on: December 28, 2021, 01:22:27 AM »
קבות הטרגדיה האיומה, שטחנו את השאלה הגדולה "מה אומרים לילדים" לפני ראש הישיבה ר' יהושע אייכנשטיין שליט"א.

ר' יהושע אמר דברים ברורים ששמע היום מר' גרשון ומדיליה, והורה מפורשות לפעול כפי האמור מטה.


לא מיותר להוסיף שגם ר"ג וגם ר"י יודעים את כל הפרטים שאנחנו יודעים כולל ההקלטה שפורסמה.


וכך אמר:

הבא על אשת איש יש לו חלק לעולם הבא. המלבין פני חבירו ברבים אין לו חלק לעולם הבא. גם אם עפ"י דין יש "למיחש מיבעי", אין בכך שום היתר ורמז להיתר לשפוך דם ולרצוח יהודי. פשיטא שזה נקרא שרצחו אותו ופשיטא שאין לרוצח חלק לעולם הבא. ברור לגמרי שהלחץ הגדול שלחצו אותו הביא אותו לידי חולי הנפש והרג את עצמו באונס. זה נקרא רציחה.

עד כאן בשם הגרי"ג.


והוסיף ר' יהושע, כיון שכל הילדים מכירים אותו וכולם שמעו לפחות את הסוף הרע של הסיפור וזה שיחת היום אצל הילדים, לכן שהמלמדים לא יחכו שישאלו אותם אלא מעצמם יתחילו לדבר עם הילדים דקות קצרות בענין ולדבר "רק" על בין אדם לחבירו.


גם אם יש מלמד שחושב שיש לו דעה בענין וכו' וכו', חובה להעביר לילדים רק את דעת התורה ולזעוק עד כמה זה מסוכן להלבין פני חבירו ברבים ולומר להם שאנשים רעים הוציאו עליו שם רע ופרסמו בכל מקום את השם רע עד שגרמו לו להתבייש להראות פניו בחוץ וגרמו לו לחלות בנפשו עד כדי שהרג את עצמו. להסביר לילדים בצורה ברורה שזה נקרא לרצוח. שהדגש יהיה חד משמעי רק על העול שעשו לו בזה שפרסמו ועברו על איסור דאורייתא. ועל התוצאה הטראגית שזלזלול בבין אדם לחבירו גורם למעשה.


עוד הוסיף, שאם ילדים ישאלו על הפרטים, אז לא רק שכל אחד יתחמק בחכמתו, אלא אדרבה שהמלמדים יבהירו שזה בדיוק מה שאסור וזה בדיוק נקרא לרצוח יהודי.

עד כאן דברי ר' יהושע

Offline gozalim

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Re: Chaim Walder dies
« Reply #170 on: December 28, 2021, 01:35:48 AM »
I suppose it can be argued that, in a perfect world, rabbonim need to do exactly what was done 'lemeichash' and cancel his books and platform etc.
But man on the street gossip is where the "chezkas Kashrus" "innocent until proven" etc. ought to apply.
Not to declare anyone's innocence, or to doubt accusers, but simply that 'yenems' sins are (in theory) not our department.

I wonder which is the stronger suicide driver; loss of position, or gossip of every single person on the street

Offline S209

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Re: Chaim Walder dies
« Reply #171 on: December 28, 2021, 01:49:05 AM »
I suppose it can be argued that, in a perfect world, rabbonim need to do exactly what was done 'lemeichash' and cancel his books and platform etc.
But man on the street gossip is where the "chezkas Kashrus" "innocent until proven" etc. ought to apply.
Not to declare anyone's innocence, or to doubt accusers, but simply that 'yenems' sins are (in theory) not our department.

I wonder which is the stronger suicide driver; loss of position, or gossip of every single person on the street
and everyone else's kids?

Offline Happyguy

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Re: Chaim Walder dies
« Reply #172 on: December 28, 2021, 03:00:33 AM »
In the letter he left he talks about Rabbi Silmon.
Contrary to Rabbi Eliahu He's a prominent rabbi in the Bnei Brak.

I think everyone would agree (inc. Charedim) that Rav Eliyahu's Beis Din is considered reputable. Besides that he has great expertise (unfortunately) in this area and has dealt with similar cases.

Is it known his stance on the issue

Rav Yehuda Silman and Rav Sariel Rosenberg both signed a letter stating one should not read his books until the matter has been verified. They didn't make any other public statements.

Offline shimino1

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Re: Chaim Walder dies
« Reply #173 on: December 28, 2021, 03:32:46 AM »
Tried to read the whole thread and got too emotional.
It seems like everyone is caught up in the whole did he do it or not question.

Can we stop and appreciate for one second that the man is dead!!!

He wasn't just "some guy".
Reb Chaim Walder was a man that influenced hundreds of thousands of children and adults and made their lives better. He introduced, developed and furthered the importance of emotions in the (Israeli) Chareidi society that was ultra focused on wrong and right, do and don't and didn't give enough consideration to feelings, human weaknesses and emotional behavior.

There are very few religious people that weren't positively influenced on some level by Reb Chaim Walder in the last 30 years. From his beautiful, heart rendering stories through his amazing parenting advice to the different important public issues he raised and advanced, every one of our lives would look different today without this special man.

Any terrible deeds he may have done and any allegation, as serious as it may be can't erase the tremendous good that he did. The bad doesn't wash out the good just as the good doesn't excuse the bad.

Trust me on this: Even if you yourself refrain from besmirching a dead man while his body is still warm and his family is still siting Shiva, there will be plenty of volunteers to pick up the mantle and continue to destroy his reputation.
That being the case, I think we can allow ourselves to not say terrible things about such an important, tragic public figure at least until Shiva is over.
What do you think? 


R.I.P Reb Chaim Walder and thank you for all the good you did  :'( :'( :'(

Offline yandmk

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Re: Chaim Walder dies
« Reply #174 on: December 28, 2021, 07:27:29 AM »
and everyone else's kids?
I suppose it can be argued that, in a perfect world, rabbonim need to do exactly what was done 'lemeichash' and cancel his books and platform etc.
You (and many others here) are terribly mistaken about what 'Lemeichash' means. What @avromie7 said was spot-on. 'Lemeichash' does not mean you have the right to cancel the person and all of their works, and forever destroy their reputation, before anything was verified. His books were removed from store bookshelves literally within 24 hours of a secular journalist publishing accusations. (As another poster mentioned, since when do we so religiously believe an article published by a secular Haaretz journalist?)
What 'Lemeichash' does mean, is that you don't need to send your child to him for therapy until things are verified. You don't need to act blindly, but to cancel someone based on initial reporting without any evidence provided yet?!?!

(Also, without getting into too much detail, from all that I read so far, it seems that the evidence up until now is pretty weak. To note, not a single police report filed. Not a single name published, as far as I'm aware. Doesn't necessarily prove innocence, but definitely deserves a fair trial before being canceled and destroying his life and his family.)

Offline yandmk

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Re: Chaim Walder dies
« Reply #175 on: December 28, 2021, 07:29:45 AM »
how about if all the accusers are anonymous?
Exactly. No particular person is getting offended here.

Offline gozalim

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Re: Chaim Walder dies
« Reply #176 on: December 28, 2021, 08:10:39 AM »
You (and many others here) are terribly mistaken about what 'Lemeichash' means. What @avromie7 said was spot-on. 'Lemeichash' does not mean you have the right to cancel the person and all of their works, and forever destroy their reputation, before anything was verified. His books were removed from store bookshelves literally within 24 hours of a secular journalist publishing accusations. (As another poster mentioned, since when do we so religiously believe an article published by a secular Haaretz journalist?)
What 'Lemeichash' does mean, is that you don't need to send your child to him for therapy until things are verified. You don't need to act blindly, but to cancel someone based on initial reporting without any evidence provided yet?!?!

(Also, without getting into too much detail, from all that I read so far, it seems that the evidence up until now is pretty weak. To note, not a single police report filed. Not a single name published, as far as I'm aware. Doesn't necessarily prove innocence, but definitely deserves a fair trial before being canceled and destroying his life and his family.)
thank you for answering


Offline YitzyS

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Re: Chaim Walder dies
« Reply #177 on: December 28, 2021, 08:32:43 AM »
קבות הטרגדיה האיומה, שטחנו את השאלה הגדולה "מה אומרים לילדים" לפני ראש הישיבה ר' יהושע אייכנשטיין שליט"א.

ר' יהושע אמר דברים ברורים ששמע היום מר' גרשון ומדיליה, והורה מפורשות לפעול כפי האמור מטה.


לא מיותר להוסיף שגם ר"ג וגם ר"י יודעים את כל הפרטים שאנחנו יודעים כולל ההקלטה שפורסמה.


וכך אמר:

הבא על אשת איש יש לו חלק לעולם הבא. המלבין פני חבירו ברבים אין לו חלק לעולם הבא. גם אם עפ"י דין יש "למיחש מיבעי", אין בכך שום היתר ורמז להיתר לשפוך דם ולרצוח יהודי. פשיטא שזה נקרא שרצחו אותו ופשיטא שאין לרוצח חלק לעולם הבא. ברור לגמרי שהלחץ הגדול שלחצו אותו הביא אותו לידי חולי הנפש והרג את עצמו באונס. זה נקרא רציחה.

עד כאן בשם הגרי"ג.


והוסיף ר' יהושע, כיון שכל הילדים מכירים אותו וכולם שמעו לפחות את הסוף הרע של הסיפור וזה שיחת היום אצל הילדים, לכן שהמלמדים לא יחכו שישאלו אותם אלא מעצמם יתחילו לדבר עם הילדים דקות קצרות בענין ולדבר "רק" על בין אדם לחבירו.


גם אם יש מלמד שחושב שיש לו דעה בענין וכו' וכו', חובה להעביר לילדים רק את דעת התורה ולזעוק עד כמה זה מסוכן להלבין פני חבירו ברבים ולומר להם שאנשים רעים הוציאו עליו שם רע ופרסמו בכל מקום את השם רע עד שגרמו לו להתבייש להראות פניו בחוץ וגרמו לו לחלות בנפשו עד כדי שהרג את עצמו. להסביר לילדים בצורה ברורה שזה נקרא לרצוח. שהדגש יהיה חד משמעי רק על העול שעשו לו בזה שפרסמו ועברו על איסור דאורייתא. ועל התוצאה הטראגית שזלזלול בבין אדם לחבירו גורם למעשה.


עוד הוסיף, שאם ילדים ישאלו על הפרטים, אז לא רק שכל אחד יתחמק בחכמתו, אלא אדרבה שהמלמדים יבהירו שזה בדיוק מה שאסור וזה בדיוק נקרא לרצוח יהודי.

עד כאן דברי ר' יהושע
Who is Rav Yehoshua Eichenstein? And who is Rav Gershon?

The content is extremely crucial IMO, and if it indeed is Daas Torah, it's important to know.

The crux of the beginning (in Rav Gershon's name) is that having a relationship with an eishes ish still allows the person to have a chelek in olam habah, but embarrassing the person in public does not.

The second part, from Rav Eichenstein, is what struck me more. He said that even if one has a personal opinion about the story, one must tell children that terrible people made up a falsehood against him and it led him to take his own life. Stress how wrong it is to embarrass someone and that it can be full fledged murder. If children ask the details, tell them that talking about it is precisely being part of embarrassing him, which those bad people did.

Offline sky121

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Re: Chaim Walder dies
« Reply #178 on: December 28, 2021, 08:34:05 AM »
Aren't there some things that are just awful enough that warrant no public praise for any good you did? 



"Not all who wander are lost"

Offline YitzyS

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Re: Chaim Walder dies
« Reply #179 on: December 28, 2021, 08:35:41 AM »
Aren't there some things that are just awful enough that warrant no public praise for any good you did?
Perhaps. There is a concept that Hashem does not erase good deeds because of bad deeds, and he rewards for good even if the bad outweighs it. I don't know if that applies for Olam Hazah also.