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I created an account to say this

I am a survivor of abuse

I tried to type up a longer, more detailed post but it got too hard. The bottom line is the following

There's no such thing as universal feelings, reactions, desires, needs that all victims share. Each one is an individual who suffered alone and carries the unique scars that stay with them and each one will react to future situations in life in their own way.

Therefore, there is no single response to abuse that will leave all victims feeling safe, secure, validated, supported, closure and everything else all the well meaning people here want to give them.

However, I think there is a single response that would leave all victims feeling further pain and trauma and that is "It can't be."

Rabbi Shimon Russell - How to Safeguard and Protect our Children

https://youtu.be/fefqSvXf0JI


« Last edited by Yehuda57 on January 12, 2022, 05:44:00 PM »

Author Topic: Chaim Walder dies  (Read 43065 times)

Offline Euclid

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Re: Chaim Walder dies
« Reply #20 on: December 27, 2021, 09:57:56 AM »
We see many times comments like: I knew this great person, or this person dedicated his life to helping others. I see nothing wrong with that. If you want to discuss if the person was a racist, anti-semite or many other things then take it to another thread.
(This could be talking about the same person...)

Online YitzyS

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Re: Chaim Walder RIP?
« Reply #21 on: December 27, 2021, 10:14:23 AM »
We see many times comments like: I knew this great person, or this person dedicated his life to helping others. I see nothing wrong with that. If you want to discuss if the person was a racist, anti-semite or many other things then take it to another thread.
This could definitely work, however it can sometimes be Avak Lashon Harah, an offshoot of Lashon Harah (gossip).

Offline Randomex

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Re: Chaim Walder dies
« Reply #22 on: December 27, 2021, 10:28:45 AM »
His soul didn’t sin, it was trapped in a body that did.

I haven't heard any reports of soulless bodies sinning...
(This raises the "What are you?" question.)
An old familiar ache / The little pills we take / The thoughtless kindness of a coffee cup waiting by the door

Offline CountValentine

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Re: Chaim Walder RIP?
« Reply #23 on: December 27, 2021, 10:29:06 AM »
This could definitely work, however it can sometimes be Avak Lashon Harah, an offshoot of Lashon Harah (gossip).
Beyond my pay grade.
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Offline CountValentine

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Re: Chaim Walder dies
« Reply #24 on: December 27, 2021, 10:29:34 AM »
(This could be talking about the same person...)
That is when it goes OT.
You're so far up Trump's a** you can see Giuliani's feet.  HT Baruch

Offline Randomex

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Re: Chaim Walder RIP?
« Reply #25 on: December 27, 2021, 10:31:34 AM »
We see many times comments like: I knew this great person, or this person dedicated his life to helping others. I see nothing wrong with that. If you want to discuss if the person was a racist, anti-semite or many other things then take it to another thread.

There's a difference between someone having an objectionable attitude or prejudice and their having done very bad things.
An old familiar ache / The little pills we take / The thoughtless kindness of a coffee cup waiting by the door

Online Something Fishy

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Re: Chaim Walder RIP?
« Reply #26 on: December 27, 2021, 10:42:42 AM »
We see many times comments like: I knew this great person, or this person dedicated his life to helping others. I see nothing wrong with that. If you want to discuss if the person was a racist, anti-semite or many other things then take it to another thread.

Agree with this. A couple of comments or a short, positive discussion fits very nicely in that thread. If it gets to long or involved, RTM and we'll split it.

Negative comments or discussions should always go in their own thread from the get-go.
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Offline Saulius

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Re: Re: RIP/BDE Master Thread
« Reply #27 on: December 27, 2021, 10:46:38 AM »
FWIU, while the allegations that most recently surfaced had not yet been verified by a court, it was apparently confirmed by a (or perhaps several) Beis Din that he violated אשת איש.

The last Headlines Podcast was about this -- http://podcast.headlinesbook.com/e/122521-%e2%80%93shiur-351%e2%80%93-rabbisat-risk%e2%80%93-coming-to-terms-with-when-our-leadersfailus-shouldwe-discard-theperpetrator-sbooksbased-on/

December 24, 2021

Can allegations be believed?
Does the perpetrator’s behavior “passul” his teachings and writings?
Should his books be removed from the stores? From our houses?
How do we come to grips with our leaders failing us?
Does the position cause the problem, or does the person take the position in order to take advantage of others?
Are there certain character traits which are more common in perpetrators?
Should we discuss it with our children, and if so, how?
Should a Rabbi, male marriage coach, etc. advise women on Shalom Bayis?

 ***Guest Hosted by Ari Wasserman *** Author of "Making it Work", "Making it ALL Work" (for women) and 10 other Seforim, Maggid Shiur, Yerushalayim

with Rabbi Dr. Yitzchak Breitowitz – Senior Lecturer at Yeshivas Ohr Somayach – 12:55
with Dr. David Pelcovitz – Renowned Psychologist – 40:29
with Dr. Erica Brown – award winning author & lecturer, Jewish leadership expert – 1:00:56
with Rabbi Daniel Feldman – Rosh Yeshiva at REITs, author of “False Facts and True Rumors” – 1:25:42
with Rabbi Dr. Yisrael Levitz – founding dean of The Family Institute of Neve Yerushalayim, author of “Rabbinic Counseling” – 1:42:57

Offline Yehuda57

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Re: Chaim Walder dies
« Reply #28 on: December 27, 2021, 11:10:53 AM »
It's all good and well to not talk negatively about someone after their death, and that is pretty much always the path to follow (while someone is alive too!). In a case where the person has victims, and in all likelihood, part of how they were allowed to become victims was their abuser relying on a communal desire for secrecy and privacy, one wouldn't want those victims to have to live through posthumous communal silence or even communal praise about their abuser.

I'm not saying every DDFer needs to tar and feather every abuser who dies, but it would be nice if we could figure out how to prioritize our focus to be on how to be sensitive to living victims during these times before figuring out the sensitivity for the deceased abuser. The two are not mutually exclusive, but it's telling where the focus is.
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Offline as2

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Re: Chaim Walder dies
« Reply #29 on: December 27, 2021, 11:18:02 AM »
It's all good and well to not talk negatively about someone after their death, and that is pretty much always the path to follow (while someone is alive too!). In a case where the person has victims, and in all likelihood, part of how they were allowed to become victims was their abuser relying on a communal desire for secrecy and privacy, one wouldn't want those victims to have to live through posthumous communal silence or even communal praise about their abuser.

I'm not saying every DDFer needs to tar and feather every abuser who dies, but it would be nice if we could figure out how to prioritize our focus to be on how to be sensitive to living victims during these times before figuring out the sensitivity for the deceased abuser. The two are not mutually exclusive, but it's telling where the focus is.
I very much agree with what you are saying here.


I believe you are correct, but I also know there is much I do not know. He was painted to be what he was painted to be, and that is all we'll ever truly know. My hesitance is always with the details (where not important to protecting others) being tossed around and discussed. I also tend to believe that it doesn't usually help the victims either.


I'm not disagreeing with your point, I'm just attempting to clarify mine.
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Offline gubevo18

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Offline NTorch

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Re: Chaim Walder RIP?
« Reply #31 on: December 27, 2021, 11:41:48 AM »
I think we should just make an official policy that NO discussion is allowed in the RIP/BDE thread, and ANY talk MUST be in a new thread.

Two points:
1. You can add "deaths" to the title ("BDE/RIP/Deaths") so that people don't feel a need to comment, or you can just leave it as is and we can all be mature.
2. I don't think a master thread should be created for "non-respectable people who died," as it would be an invitation for posthumous badmouthing, and also, it's hard to conflate all wrongdoing into a unified thread. Let people make new threads for each person if they think it's important enough to talk negatively about them after their death.
Agree with this. A couple of comments or a short, positive discussion fits very nicely in that thread. If it gets to long or involved, RTM and we'll split it.

Negative comments or discussions should always go in their own thread from the get-go.
I agree with this conceptually, but I think that it may not get followed in practice. If you allow posts in one direction people may not realize that its only for positive and that negative comments are not permitted in the thread. I would think it would be clearer if the topic was just an announcement of who passed away with no editorializing one way or the other.

Offline Yehuda57

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Re: Chaim Walder dies
« Reply #32 on: December 27, 2021, 11:59:26 AM »
I very much agree with what you are saying here.


I believe you are correct, but I also know there is much I do not know. He was painted to be what he was painted to be, and that is all we'll ever truly know. My hesitance is always with the details (where not important to protecting others) being tossed around and discussed. I also tend to believe that it doesn't usually help the victims either.


I'm not disagreeing with your point, I'm just attempting to clarify mine.

Just to be clear, I wasn't directing my comment to you or anyone specifically.
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Re: Chaim Walder dies
« Reply #33 on: December 27, 2021, 12:03:55 PM »
For the most part the thread works. Every now and then someone needs to trash the person in the thread. Just split it off.
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Offline JoeyShmoe

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Re: Chaim Walder dies
« Reply #34 on: December 27, 2021, 01:22:16 PM »
https://we.tl/t-Tfr33PxHzY

Here's a recording of Yonasan Schwartz talking about this, assuming he's not lying (why would he?) then I hope he'll release what he has and perhaps clear an innocent person's name. I don't know if I'm hoping that he's saying the truth or that he's lying, at this point I'm not sure which version would be better :'(

P.S. Sorry to all the non Yiddish speakers
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Offline CountValentine

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Re: Chaim Walder dies
« Reply #35 on: December 27, 2021, 01:29:53 PM »
P.S. Sorry to all the non Yiddish speakers
How about the CliffsNotes?
You're so far up Trump's a** you can see Giuliani's feet.  HT Baruch

Offline Euclid

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Re: Chaim Walder dies
« Reply #36 on: December 27, 2021, 01:52:10 PM »
https://we.tl/t-Tfr33PxHzY

Here's a recording of Yonasan Schwartz talking about this, assuming he's not lying (why would he?) then I hope he'll release what he has and perhaps clear an innocent person's name. I don't know if I'm hoping that he's saying the truth or that he's lying, at this point I'm not sure which version would be better :'(

P.S. Sorry to all the non Yiddish speakers
Meh, not very convincing

Offline tov hashem

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Re: Chaim Walder dies
« Reply #37 on: December 27, 2021, 02:03:48 PM »
https://we.tl/t-Tfr33PxHzY

Here's a recording of Yonasan Schwartz talking about this, assuming he's not lying (why would he?) then I hope he'll release what he has and perhaps clear an innocent person's name. I don't know if I'm hoping that he's saying the truth or that he's lying, at this point I'm not sure which version would be better :'(

P.S. Sorry to all the non Yiddish speakers
stinks
Regards from henche!

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Re: Chaim Walder dies
« Reply #38 on: December 27, 2021, 02:12:03 PM »
Meh, not very convincing
stinks
I agree, my question is why not release the recordings. Apparently Walder asked him not to and he promised him he won't, but now he's considering it. We'll see if that every happens
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Offline Euclid

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Chaim Walder dies
« Reply #39 on: December 27, 2021, 02:14:40 PM »
I agree, my question is why not release the recordings. Apparently Walder asked him not to and he promised him he won't, but now he's considering it. We'll see if that every happens
Even if those recordings are real and true, why does that preclude the possibility that CW did what was alleged?

Also, the fact that YS spoke to CW and didn't speak to any of the accusers automatically makes him biased. Especially if he never spoke to CW in his life before this.

Also, lie detector tests are notoriously unreliable.

Basically: meh, not very convincing.
« Last Edit: December 27, 2021, 02:18:04 PM by Euclid »