Chaim Walder dies

[AsherO]

You don't have to take my word for it, others here can vouch for my grandfather’s musical knowledge and ability. But more, he knew carlebach, was friends with him. It was extremely painful for him to watch him use his talents in the ways he did.

People didn't walk out because of Carlebach's sexual abuse, that wasn't known or discussed in those days. They protested his flagrant disregard for halacha in the name of bringing people closer to yiddishkeit.

This part troubles me a lot, the great talent/potential such people have, and how low they stoop. I need to come up with ideas like the על הגדול מחברו one I posted upthread to make sense of it.

[AsherO]

FTFY

Would he? Idk. But he supposedly writes this about SC, and in reality lived died differently.

[aygart]

This part troubles me a lot, the great talent/potential such people have, and how low they stoop. I need to come up with ideas like the על הגדול מחברו one I posted upthread to make sense of it.

It can very easily be a gaava that can come from talent.

[aygart]

Would he? Idk. But he supposedly writes this about SC, and in reality lived died differently.

That is why I wrote probably. Some who recognizes the need to do teshuva wouldn't find suicide to be a way out.

[S209]

A reputable Dayen? Source?
That would change my opinion.

Is this a joke? CW specifically called out R’ Yehuda Silman a very prominent Dayan from Bnei Brak (from the very BD the other posters were referring to) in his suicide note.

[AsherO]

That is why I wrote probably. Some who recognizes the need to do teshuva wouldn't find suicide to be a way out.

Maybe, maybe not. There can be more than one motivator for suicide and I’m far from an expert. No personal experience

[shwarmabob]

the books are out in the garbage. I hope the kids don't notice.

[madhocker]

There are some (perhaps minor) distinctions to be made between SC and  CW, where all of SC’s (known) accusers we’re not minors, though many reported the advances/behaviors to be non-consensual and abusive.

My post was only regarding strict halacha. I had understood that Rabbi Eiseman was taking a halachik stance against reading them. If one was to make the case that it is assur to read his books, it would be difficult to use a minor distinction above to permit SC music.

Having said that, I totally can understand the sentiment that one would feel disgust by reading his books. But I'm not sure what the basis would be in halacha to forbid them.

[shwarmabob]

Looks like the poster deleted it here. There are some (perhaps minor) distinctions to be made between SC and  CW, where all of SC’s (known) accusers we’re not minors, though many reported the advances/behaviors to be non-consensual and abusive.

wrong. some were under the legal age of consent.

[avromie7]

We are again assuming he definitely did it?

Regarding your son (and everyone else's) you are kinda doomed either way.
I don't think you want to explain to your son with enough background and detail what exactly CW is accused of to make him understand why you are removing his beloved books and throwing them into the trash.

I think it is the same problem with teaching our kids about awareness. Either you scare all the innocence out of them and leave them suspecting every friendly, benign touch from any adult and teach them not to trust their teachers, neighbors, uncles Etc Or, you give them vague warnings that anyway can't cover every situation and regardless of their education, the power dynamics between a child and adult, especially someone they trust and are close with will always favor the abuser.

I thank Hashem that none of my kids are old enough to know what happened.

You should definitely watch the whole video Rabbi Russell referred to at the begining of the video posted upthread.

[haltkup]

Why can’t this be a teachable moment that we can appreciate great work but not the person just like we teach our kids not to idolize sports stars? This feels to me like a non-yiddish haskofah of cancel culture. Should we ban must read MLK literature because of his checkered morality or other great people that we know today had depraved morals? On a similar context, should Kof-k’s remove the hechsher on Ben-& Jerries and many others such cases.
While we have seen many therapists and rabonim ban his books, to the best of my knowledge we have yet to hear from mainstream Daas Torah on this topic. Hopefully they will issue guidance (after consulting with therapists) and I will follow suit. For now I told my kids, respect the work but the person has been accused of committing the worst crimes and  I would never allow you kids to be near him with a ten foot pole (similar to how I talk to them about Trump).  We may need to remove his books based on our robonin guidelines.
I will point out that Rabbi Russel, who is sadly an expert on this topic did make a compelling point regarding adding trauma to victims seeing it as supporting an abuser. I think that’s a question again to Daas Torah if it’s valid enough of a reason for me to not allow it in my private dwelling.

[chevron]

Shlomo or reb Shlomo was far from perfect and every one knows his story.

His was a world of hippies and house of love, saying he slept around would be like saying bears poop in the woods

The stories of underage abuse etc from what I recall came to light later

Cw wrote books about children for children. In one kids speak there's the story of the kid at an event and he gets off the elevator at the wrong floor and he sees something they don't say what but the kid is traumatized.

These are stories about kids who came to him for help, some who were vulnerable as you see in his books and he took advantage of this.

Reb shlomos songs are words from tehillim and tefilla. I think it's much more different than books for kids

[Yehuda57]

Why can’t this be a teachable moment that we can appreciate great work but not the person

Because of the 3 points she made you didn't address

[haltkup]

Because of the 3 points she made you didn't address

maybe i didn't articulate it well but they were all addressed... 1. teach ypur kids that the person can produce work but he himself can be the worst of the worst , 2, is cancel couture types of talking points and is addressed by telling the kids he is a terrible person and we should not idolize him at all l(otherwise i have a hard time how anyone can justify rooting for sports stars or and other celebrities) 3. I pointed out that Rabbi Russel made a similar more pointed argument without the for "his own benefit" argument that again should come in to play. and i think its an idea the rabonim should take in to account when deciding on banning the book

[VacationLover]

Do you actually vet every book that enters your home not just for content but for the morality of the writer as well?
Do you vet every song you listen to and make sure the singer is an erlich yid?
Do you only watch movies after going over the actors bio's one by one and making sure none of them was ever accused of moral

I'll note that here on DDF we have a couple of threads discussing TV shows, movies etc. (Some of which Harvey weinstein was involved 🤔)

[Essen est zich]

Not sure of this was shared. Rabbi YY https://youtu.be/30qSueAmfbg

[sky121]

As a smaller side point, I think the fact that we can say to the kids (the ones we'll be discussing this with) that this famous man that we all loved is being removed from our houses because he touched kids inappropriately is a fantastic message to them. Cementing in them the idea that no one is above the rules and that indeed no one, no matter who they are, or how well loved they are,  is allowed to touch you inappropriately.


I realize not everyone is going to be having this exact discussion with their kids but for the ones who do, its a great reminder and message.

[AsherO]

wrong. some were under the legal age of consent.

I wasn’t aware.

[aygart]

wrong. some were under the legal age of consent.

Legal?

[chevron]

With due respect to the Rosh Yeshiva, it's a cute story, but just plain false, and actually quite insulting. If you don't want to walk out when carlebach sings, that's a legitimate position, but to mock those who had a different position says more about how comfortable you are with your position than them.

You don't have to take my word for it, others here can vouch for my grandfather’s musical knowledge and ability. But more, he knew carlebach, was friends with him. It was extremely painful for him to watch him use his talents in the ways he did.

People didn't walk out because of Carlebach's sexual abuse, that wasn't known or discussed in those days. They protested his flagrant disregard for halacha in the name of bringing people closer to yiddishkeit.

If someone sang a Carlebach song in front of my grandfather, they got a stare down for the ages. Not because he was "tone deaf" - he gave you a similar look if you got a note wrong in Der Pastach - but because of the painful memories it elicited.

Having said that, I don't know that he would have walked out of a wedding, he probably would have stayed and danced with his old friend, even as it pained him to overhear Esa Einai the next day.

That's more connected to what's at play here. When you see, or when your kid sees a Chaim Walder book, what is going to come to mind? I'll never be able to read kids speak without wondering if he based this story on a child he abused emotionally or physically. An abuse survivor who sees people's speak on your shelf will immidiately be triggered and retraumatized.

Does that happen when carlebach music plays? For some, yes, for 99.9% of people no.

I eat most weeks by hagaon eily smith, his wife is citron.. her parents come often and of course bubby carlebach.

Shlomo is the other side, this is his twin eli chaim.

But I certainly learned a lot about the carlebach family of ranbanim.

Shlomo had so much for him and against him. His story is not of any specific steam of Judaism, Lakewood may have judged him for going to chabad but he was very much from Torah im derech eretz world.. his family were the highly respected ranbanim of Hamburg etc..

Shlomo was the story of greater the yetzer tov, greater the yetzer hara.

When I sing ana hashem, I can't pretend to know what Shlomo was thinking when he sang out. Hashem yodea machshavos Adam

Listen, David hamelech wasn't perfect either .. ironically he gave away batsheva!