Chaim Walder dies

[S209]

None of this helps an innocent person thrown to the dogs. I understand the point of helping the victims and I'm fully on board, but an innocent man shouldn't have his life ruined because the accusation has a statistically high chance of being true.

Key word: innocent. How can we know? And what should we use as a guiding metric to determine whether one is indeed innocent? What if there’s a 99%+ chance of it being true? (IINM once a person has multiple independent accusers the odds of them being innocent plummets. I don’t recall a case other than the famous McMartin scandal where such a person ended up being cleared of wrongdoing.)

[S209]

My point was to your isolated point. The frequency of occurrence is a non factor in Dan lekaf zechus.

Are you sure about that?

Either way, I haven't heard from any accusor, I've heard other say there were accusors. I also don't believe I heard his side more than a suicide note.

I pray it's not true, and have no way of knowing if it is, so I leave it be. That's just my approach.

That’s great, but what if you are hurting actual living people by doing that? Are you ok with contributing to their ongoing and probably lifelong suffering?

[avromie7]

Key word: innocent. How can we know? And what should we use as a guiding metric to determine whether one is indeed innocent? What if there’s a 99%+ chance of it being true? (IINM once a person has multiple independent accusers the odds of them being innocent plummets. I don’t recall a case other than the famous McMartin scandal where such a person ended up being cleared of wrongdoing.)

Why is the ratio of innocently accused to real bad actors relevant? Again, try to think of this from the viewpoint of the accused, why should his life be ruined because the statistics aren't on his side?

[Euclid]

Why is the ratio of innocently accused to real bad actors relevant? Again, try to think of this from the viewpoint of the accused, why should his life be ruined because the statistics aren't on his side?

I totally get this sentiment, but you're looking at it in a vacuum and I don't think that's the proper approach. It reminds me of the trolley problem.

[aygart]

Key word: innocent. How can we know? And what should we use as a guiding metric to determine whether one is indeed innocent? What if there’s a 99%+ chance of it being true? (IINM once a person has multiple independent accusers the odds of them being innocent plummets. I don’t recall a case other than the famous McMartin scandal where such a person ended up being cleared of wrongdoing.)

Persistent accusations make a tremendous difference lhalacha and is called sani shumanei

[S209]

Why is the ratio of innocently accused to real bad actors relevant? Again, try to think of this from the viewpoint of the accused, why should his life be ruined because the statistics aren't on his side?

The relevant ratio would be accused who are innocent vs. accused who are guilty. And while you are correct that just because “statistics” does not a guilty man make, it’s important to note that in each case there are going to be no winners, only losers. And I’m not convinced a man accused has it worse than a child/woman abused and scorned for her accusation. So the real question is this:

If an accusation is far more likely to be true than false, and either way one human will be subjected to a lot of suffering (ahem famous case from Lakewood forced to move ahem), which side should we be instinctively more inclined to believe? Remember, this isn’t about jail time or actual punitive measures, only the way the community perceives and defends the respective characters.

I’m not saying I have answers, only questions, but something is broken either way. There is an insane amount of abuse, and while we have made a lot of headway, there’s still a ways to go. That doesn’t specifically go for the Frum community, but for society as a whole.

[Yehuda57]

There is no need for any individual to take a stance on anyone's guilt. You can tell a great deal by the general attitudes, actions, and speech of a community and its leaders.

Is the reaction to an accusation to offer as much support and encouragement to the victims while allowing for due process, or is the victim silenced, or worse, shamed and publicly discredited under the guise of due process?

Are there fundraisers for the victims or are you more likely to see fundraisers for the abuser's defense?

Is a generic Rabbinical statement bound to express care and concern for potential victims first and foremost and also making care to avoid jumping to conclusions, or are they more likely to be harshly critical or accusers and their methods of attaining justice, with maybe a passing mention of the safety of children?

Due process and protecting victims should not be mutually exclusive. Why does it seem that they are, with the erring always on the side of the accused?

[aygart]

The relevant ratio would be accused who are innocent vs. accused who are guilty. And while you are correct that just because “statistics” does not a guilty man make, it’s important to note that in each case there are going to be no winners, only losers. And I’m not convinced a man accused has it worse than a child/woman abused and scorned for her accusation. So the real question is this:

If an accusation is far more likely to be true than false, and either way one human will be subjected to a lot of suffering (ahem famous case from Lakewood forced to move ahem), which side should we be instinctively more inclined to believe? Remember, this isn’t about jail time or actual punitive measures, only the way the community perceives and defends the respective characters.

I’m not saying I have answers, only questions, but something is broken either way. There is an insane amount of abuse, and while we have made a lot of headway, there’s still a ways to go. That doesn’t specifically go for the Frum community, but for society as a whole.

There is a server that discusses this. It is called Chofetz Chaim. These are not the criteria.

[as2]

Are you sure about that?That’s great, but what if you are hurting actual living people by doing that? Are you ok with contributing to their ongoing and probably lifelong suffering?

While you may see it that way, not everyone does.
I've learned to live with my life choices.

[gozalim]

How would you feel being an innocent man accused of something so horrible, but the public feels it's worth feeding you to the dogs because others were hurt by real abusers? It doesn't help you that there are unfortunately many real victims. This is the thinking I try to use and it's why you may see what looks like me defending the accused (not limited to sexual abuse).

Would I allow them near my kids? No way, but they deserve the right to not have an innocent life ruined regardless of how many innocent lives were ruined by real horrible people.

and everyone else's kids?

[Yehuda57]

Also, I'm in no way saying our community is better or worse at dealing with this than any other. You point to a community and there are major scandals that have come up. Religious, secular, entertainment, academia, sports, and on and on. For every rabbi you paint as an enabler I'll show you five priests, professors, coaches, teachers, executives, etc.

We can only deal with our problems. Hence the talk of our community.

[CountValentine]

There is no need for any individual to take a stance on anyone's guilt. You can tell a great deal by the general attitudes, actions, and speech of a community and its leaders.

Is the reaction to an accusation to offer as much support and encouragement to the victims while allowing for due process, or is the victim silenced, or worse, shamed and publicly discredited under the guise of due process?

Are there fundraisers for the victims or are you more likely to see fundraisers for the abuser's defense?

Is a generic Rabbinical statement bound to express care and concern for potential victims first and foremost and also making care to avoid jumping to conclusions, or are they more likely to be harshly critical or accusers and their methods of attaining justice, with maybe a passing mention of the safety of children?

Due process and protecting victims should not be mutually exclusive. Why does it seem that they are, with the erring always on the side of the accused?

The leaders of any organization believe they can handle this internally, so it does not tarnish the organization. History has shown us every one of them have failed. They may have good intentions, but they are doomed to fail.

[S209]

https://www.thejewishstar.com/stories/still-screaming-is-anyone-listening,1584

I have never met a person who was as careful and as knowledgeable about the laws of Loshon Hora as an abuser. Indeed, part of their abusive behavior is to abuse and manipulate the laws of Loshon Hora to allow them to continue their behavior and their molestation.

Silence is not just unhelpful; silence is the ultimate collaborator and abettor to the crime of molestation!

[S209]

While you may see it that way, not everyone does.
I've learned to live with my life choices.

See it what way? I only questioned. I have no answers.

[CountValentine]

For every rabbi you paint as an enabler I'll show you five priests, professors, coaches, teachers, executives, etc.

Is this because a rabbi is five times less likely to commit these acts or these acts are being covered up?

[PlatinumGuy]

Is this because a rabbi is five times less likely to commit these acts or these acts are being covered up?

I understood it to mean simply because there are fewer rabbis in the world

[Yehuda57]

Is this because a rabbi is five times less likely to commit these acts or these acts are being covered up?

It's a turn of phrase. There's way more than 5 per rabbi. Probably more like 10,000:1. I'm not good at math.

[CountValentine]

Would I allow them near my kids? No way, but they deserve the right to not have an innocent life ruined regardless of how many innocent lives were ruined by real horrible people.

If this person was a teacher, then if everyone thought the same way as you did his life is ruined. He would have no kids to teach. You just ruined the person's life while thinking you didn't.

[S209]

There is a server that discusses this. It is called Chofetz Chaim. These are not the criteria.

The sefer discusses what an individual is allowed to say and believe. I am talking about a community’s knee jerk reflexes and perception. Also, every case is different and one should be careful about being machmir on shmiras halashon while being meikel on pikuach nefesh. It’s important to have Rabbanim involved early and often. But while the dust is settling I’m not sure if the priority should always be to rush to publicly defend and stand by the *possibly* innocent person being accused more than the *possibly* innocent person being abused.

[Euclid]

It's a turn of phrase. There's way more than 5 per rabbi. Probably more like 10,000:1. I'm not good at math.

1 professor, 1 priest, and 1 rabbi entered a bar. The bartender exclaimed - "what are the odds?! Did Yehuda57 write this joke??"