Chaim Walder dies

[nbfromnj]

This is utter poppycock. You've created an entire bubbeh maaseh about lashon hora as if it somehow contradicts protecting victims and potential victims. The two are not mutually exclusive.

As I said before, if the two do contradict, it's telling where you choose to err. On the side of protecting the abuser of the victims.

Is this really the hill people want to die on? Defending the honor of the likes of Chaim Walder?

I'm not defending anyone. I did not create a bubbeh maaseh and I am not saying that Chaim Walder isn't guilty. I'm just telling you what the chofetz chaim wrote. You can and should take all the steps of protecting victims and potential victims necessary but until the matter is proven, the halacha is that you cannot completely believe that the allegations are true. You are allowed to suspect but you cannot accept as fact.

[S209]

I don't know particularly about the Yated. But I think people are misunderstanding something very important here.
Nobody is protecting an "abuser" just because he was a great guy and a great author and very influential. They are questioning if there is actually evidence to prove that he's actually an abuser, which would allow to defame him.
Afaik, there isn't one person (with a name) who came out publicly saying that they were abused by him. Everyone is busy "protecting" 22 anonymouses...
There's a psak from Harav Gershon vs the psak of R' SE. They're obviously going to follow Harav Gershon.
(And honestly speaking, I'm sure most here on this forum would go with Harav Gershon's psak over R' SE if they had a personal matter to resolve)

You just don’t get it, do you? You think that the only way someone can go down is if victims publicly out themselves? What on earth is the matter with you? Bad enough they were abused, and bad enough that they need to reveal their most shameful secrets to a roomful of even supportive people, now they need to ruin their own names publicly for the whole world to hear as well?

This is a conglomeration of many independent victims and witnesses corroborated by multiple sources, secular press, and Dayanim. Finally, after all these years and all of the rumors and psakei Din, people went forward and testified in a Beis Din, doing it the right way. No, they do *not* need to nor should there be any pressure on them whatsoever to release their names for your prying eyes.

What message are we sending potential victims of abuse? “You’ll only be believed if you air your name out for all the world to see, for the shameful and vicious acts a monster perpetrated on you in your innocence?”

What message are we sending potential abusers? “You won’t get caught, the bar is too high, nobody will believe anyone unless they expose their own personal history for all the world to see. Just make it too painful for hem to bear witness and you’ll get away scot-free?”

Oh right, and also “There’s always suicide as a way out of an investigation.”

[nbfromnj]

I'm not defending anyone. I did not create a bubbeh maaseh and I am not saying that Chaim Walder isn't guilty. I'm just telling you what the chofetz chaim wrote. You can and should take all the steps of protecting victims and potential victims necessary but until the matter is proven, the halacha is that you cannot completely believe that the allegations are true. You are allowed to suspect but you cannot accept as fact.

Part One, The Prohibition Against Lashon Hara, Principle 7, Seif 4
1
וְהוּא הַדִּין, אִם יָצָא (ח) קוֹל עַל אֶחָֹד, שֶׁעָשָׂה מַעֲשֶׂה אוֹ שֶׁדִּבֵּר דָּבָר, שֶׁלֹּא כָּרָאוּי עַל פִּי הַתּוֹרָה, בֵּין שֶׁהוּא אִסוּר חָמוּר וּבֵין שֶׁהוּא אִסוּר קַל, אֲפִלּוּ הָכֵי אָסוּר לְקַבְּלוֹ לְהַאֲמִינוֹ בְּהַחְלָטָה, רַק לָחוּשׁ, עַד שֶׁיִּתְבָּרֵר הַדָּבָר, וְעַל אַחַת כַּמָּה וְכַמָּה שֶׁיִּזָּהֵר מְאֹד, אִם רוֹצֶה לְסַפֵּר אֶת הַדָּבָר לַאֲחֵרִים, (ט) שֶׁלֹּא יְכַוֵּן לְהַעֲבִיר הַקּוֹל וּלְגַלּוֹתוֹ יוֹתֵר, וּכְמוֹ שֶׁבֵּאַרְנוּ לְעֵיל בִּכְלָל ב' סָעִיף ג', עַיֵּן שָׁם הֵיטֵב.
The same is true if a rumor has spread about someone that he has done something or said something not in accordance with the Torah, whether a greater or lesser issur, it is forbidden to accept it, to believe it implicitly, but only to suspect, until the thing is clarified. How much more so must he take care, if he wishes to tell the thing to others, that he have no intent to spread the rumor and to reveal it further, as we explained above (viz. Principle II, section 2).

[S209]

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shmuel_Eliyahu

If the Wiki is to be believed HaRav Shmuel Eliyahu appears to be quite a controversial person. He has supposedly called for carpet bombing the Palestinians, hanging terrorists kids . and has been involved in a theory that asserts that the pope and vatican are secretly training hezbolla to wipe out the Jews.

Rav Silman does have extensive credibility. He was named in the letter but did he merely say to stop reading the books or did he concur with Rav Eliyahu’s Beis Din?

Aha, so just to be clear, we are to cast aspersions on an Av Beis Din and Talmid Chochom who was relied upon by R’ Ezriel Auerbach’s Bais Din based on a Wikipedia article about some pamphlet against terrorists just so that we should not Chas veSholom have to cast further aspersions on someone the likes of who is known and confirmed to have engaged in at least one predatory relationship with an eishes ish, threatened the victim on video with suicide (who does that!?), and then killed himself, because “he’s a respected children’s author”?

Methinks the oilam needs to check their preconceptions.

[chevron]

Some people's entire religion rests on screaming LH to anything

 You mention one guy commiting suicide, what about all the victims of sexual abuse who committed suicide?

[yandmk]

You just don’t get it, do you? You think that the only way someone can go down is if victims publicly out themselves? What on earth is the matter with you? Bad enough they were abused, and bad enough that they need to reveal their most shameful secrets to a roomful of even supportive people, now they need to ruin their own names publicly for the whole world to hear as well?

This is a conglomeration of many independent victims and witnesses corroborated by multiple sources, secular press, and Dayanim. Finally, after all these years and all of the rumors and psakei Din, people went forward and testified in a Beis Din, doing it the right way. No, they do *not* need to nor should there be any pressure on them whatsoever to release their names for your prying eyes.

What message are we sending potential victims of abuse? “You’ll only be believed if you air your name out for all the world to see, for the shameful and vicious acts a monster perpetrated on you in your innocence?”

What message are we sending potential abusers? “You won’t get caught, the bar is too high, nobody will believe anyone unless they expose their own personal history for all the world to see. Just make it too painful for hem to bear witness and you’ll get away scot-free?”

Oh right, and also “There’s always suicide as a way out of an investigation.”

Woah.... You took one line of what I said and ignored everything else I wrote. Perhaps I was wrong about that. People don't need to actually identify themselves publicly to prove him guilty. That wasn't the point of my post.
The rest of my posts still stands.
There's a psak from probably the most respected litvish gadol today, saying there isn't sufficient evidence provided to defame this particular person. No one is defending abusers. No one is screaming Lashon Harah at people for shaming abusers. People are following Daas Torah for what labels someone an abuser.

[dasmo801]

There's a psak from probably the most respected litvish gadol today, saying there isn't sufficient evidence provided to defame this particular person.

Source?

[Yehuda57]

I'm not defending anyone. I did not create a bubbeh maaseh and I am not saying that Chaim Walder isn't guilty. I'm just telling you what the chofetz chaim wrote. You can and should take all the steps of protecting victims and potential victims necessary but until the matter is proven, the halacha is that you cannot completely believe that the allegations are true. You are allowed to suspect but you cannot accept as fact.

You responded to a comment about prioritizing victims, and specifically excerpted that line without my other comments about due process, and responded with stuff about lashon hara which doesn't contradict prioritizing victims in the slightest.

How do you think an abuse victim feels when they read these posts? You don't have to believe all allegations to understand that when you publicly laud a credibly accused abuser or cast aspersions on the integrity of the alleged victims, you are bringing up the traumas again and abusing them again! For what? To be uber careful about lashon hara? If you can't do both, and there's no reason why not, be uber careful about not tormenting innocent people and "reabusing" them first, and then figure out the lashon hara aspect.

Protecting victims doesn't mean believing CW's accusers, it's also about all other victims of abuse who are reading how we would treat and speak about them if they were to speak up. Thank G-d I'm not one of them, but ain't no way in heck I'd ever speak up about anyone in a community that has proved again and again that protecting the image of the accused is priority #1.

[rbs-g1.5]

יסודתו במחלוקת

יסודתו במחלוקת לשם שמים נגד כת משיחי ונחטף לפני כמה שנים על ידי אנשים שזרקו את כל ההשקפה הטהורה כולל ההתנגדות לכת המשיחי  וזו רק אחד מהחטאים הקטנים שלהם

[Moshe123]

And like every good DDF thread, straight off the rails....

[nbfromnj]

You responded to a comment about prioritizing victims, and specifically excerpted that line without my other comments about due process, and responded with stuff about lashon hara which doesn't contradict prioritizing victims in the slightest.

How do you think an abuse victim feels when they read these posts? You don't have to believe all allegations to understand that when you publicly laud a credibly accused abuser or cast aspersions on the integrity of the alleged victims, you are bringing up the traumas again and abusing them again! For what? To be uber careful about lashon hara? If you can't do both, and there's no reason why not, be uber careful about not tormenting innocent people and "reabusing" them first, and then figure out the lashon hara aspect.

Protecting victims doesn't mean believing CW's accusers, it's also about all other victims of abuse who are reading how we would treat and speak about them if they were to speak up. Thank G-d I'm not one of them, but ain't no way in heck I'd ever speak up about anyone in a community that has proved again and again that protecting the image of the accused is priority #1.

I neither lauded the accused nor cast aspersion on the integrity of the accusers.

I was not disagreeing with that post.

I was bringing up the point that no matter the circumstances and what we feel, we must always refer back to the torah to make sure that our thoughts and actions and reactions are in line with halacha.

The halacha that I was quoting states specifically that one may suspect the accused and treat the situation as a serious threat. at the same time in his heart he cannot fully believe it

[Dan]

Why we need to throw away his books:
https://www.instagram.com/tv/CYEQhywhb1Q/

[CountValentine]

And like every good DDF thread, straight off the rails....

This one was doomed from the start.

[yerushabubby]

There is a very good shiur from R' Zev Leff about this issue.  Among the things that he points out is that at this point, banning his books etc does nothing to him, but rather harms his family.  Whatever he may have done, do THEY deserve to be punished for it?

[Dan]

There is a very good shiur from R' Zev Leff about this issue.  Among the things that he points out is that at this point, banning his books etc does nothing to him, but rather harms his family.  Whatever he may have done, do THEY deserve to be punished for it?

Why we need to throw away his books:
https://www.instagram.com/tv/CYEQhywhb1Q/

[yitzgar]

There is a very good shiur from R' Zev Leff about this issue.  Among the things that he points out is that at this point, banning his books etc does nothing to him, but rather harms his family.  Whatever he may have done, do THEY deserve to be punished for it?

The purpose isn't to punish anyone. It's about sending mixed messages to your children who are reading them. It's terrible that families of predators have to suffer, they are also victims.

[yerushabubby]

I can't access that link, so have no idea what it says. 

[rbs-g1.5]

And like every good DDF thread, straight off the rails....

i know i just couldnt let that go by silently

[dasmo801]

There is a very good shiur from R' Zev Leff about this issue.  Among the things that he points out is that at this point, banning his books etc does nothing to him, but rather harms his family.  Whatever he may have done, do THEY deserve to be punished for it?

There were a number of reasons to get rid of his books that were mentioned or linked to above. See R. Shimon Russell's clip & R. Gershon Ribner's clip above.

[aygart]

I don't know particularly about the Yated. But I think people are misunderstanding something very important here.
Nobody is protecting an "abuser" just because he was a great guy and a great author and very influential. They are questioning if there is actually evidence to prove that he's actually an abuser, which would allow to defame him.
Afaik, there isn't one person (with a name) who came out publicly saying that they were abused by him. Everyone is busy "protecting" 22 anonymouses...
There's a psak from Harav Gershon vs the psak of R' SE. They're obviously going to follow Harav Gershon.
(And honestly speaking, I'm sure most here on this forum would go with Harav Gershon's psak over R' SE if they had a personal matter to resolve)

Read the article posted from the Yated. Do you have any tzad that it is what R" Gershon meant?