Chaim Walder dies

[iwlw2]

There is no middle (& certainly not today with social media). Once there’s accusations it must be made public to warn other potential victims. But by going public the accused is now destroyed. That’s just life.
Say the accused is a teacher/therapist, the minute there’s an accusation he must be removed from his job, even though his livelihood is now destroyed. Let’s say the case goes nowhere how do you ever let him teach again ? He might still be a sick predator but the victim doesn’t want to pursue it, or it was somehow settled quietly. The only way I’m ever comfortable with him going near kids again is if the victim publicly announces to the world that it was all fabricated.
It’s not fair but that’s the reality.

I don't necessarily disagree with this, and as I stated I am not sure either if it is possible in today's world to have a middle way, and I think thats part of what the gedolim who are speaking out are decrying. As far as removing an possible harm even at the expense of possible harm to the accused, I would tend to agree that there is no choice but to have some collateral damage in order to ensure protection of others given the very low rate of false accusations for sure. However, I also recognize that this is a halachic issue as well, and as such I can't make that determination of how to handle it.

[yzj]

Aha, so just to be clear, we are to cast aspersions on an Av Beis Din and Talmid Chochom who was relied upon by R’ Ezriel Auerbach’s Bais Din based on a Wikipedia article about some pamphlet against terrorists just so that we should not Chas veSholom have to cast further aspersions on someone the likes of who is known and confirmed to have engaged in at least one predatory relationship with an eishes ish, threatened the victim on video with suicide (who does that!?), and then killed himself, because “he’s a respected children’s author”?

Methinks the oilam needs to check their preconceptions.

Rav Eliyahu is an extremist dati leumi leader who is given to hyperbole. He stated he won’t allow Rav Ovadia Yosef’s seforim in his house after Oslo. He has by all accounts made lots of hyperbolic and controversial statements over the years. He may be very chashuv. Maybe it’s just his style. I have no idea. But you’ll forgive me if I don’t take his word as Torah min Hashomayim and would want further verification from someone whose words are measured. If the above had been said by Rav Shmuel Kaminetzky it would be very different.

[iwlw2]

On this note, thoughts on the best way to do this?

Rafi (10, ka"h) has several of his books in his room. Do I take them out and toss them and if he asks about them explain what we did with them?
Or from the start, have a discussion with him along the lines above about why we are throwing away his books?

I would think that as has been mentioned in some of the clips going around, it's an opportunity for a teachable moment, both about the vulnerability of people to fall prey to their yetzer hara and to reinforce necessary physical boundaries around everyone even if they seem like older and prestigious people.

[nbfromnj]

Okay. Has that been done? Here they supposedly had spoken with actual victims.

I'm not sure I understand the pronouns in your question. What has been done is that someone or more than one someone took this story to secular journalists.  If those someones were allowed to do that as a valid way of speaking lashon hara l'toeles to warn others about a serious threat, then great. if that is not an acceptable way to warn others then anyone else in a similar predicament in the future should use a permissible way to get the message out.

[chevron]

 Random singer sings at mixed concert "burn him, burn his mother"

Random dude does something the rabbi's don't approve of "apikores!!!"

Yet here we have calls to not judge, to not speak lh, to not talk bad about someone..

Really? Why isn't that relevant when they publicly bashmutz people who don't fit their agenda?

[Euclid]

English?

On my phone, sorry for the brevity.

There was a story in the 70s/80s where a Rosh Yeshiva (or magid shiur) was accused of sexual abuse. People came to the Steipler and he threw them out because he didn't believe it. As more testimony came in, he changed his stance and even wrote this letter to publicly denounce this rabbi. The rabbi is now in his upper 80s and hasn't held a public position since then.

[Euclid]

I don't think he or his friends in school know how a local father with kids in the school died...and that's something special about CLE.

Ugh we got skewered here on DDF about this. Bad times

[rbs-g1.5]

Random singer sings at mixed concert "burn him, burn his mother"

Random dude does something the rabbi's don't approve of "apikores!!!"

Yet here we have calls to not judge, to not speak lh, to not talk bad about someone..

Really? Why isn't that relevant when they publicly bashmutz people who don't fit their agenda?

maybe if we would all listen to those crazy rabbis when they warn us not to honor people who lack yiras shamayim then we wouldnt have to deal with the scandals that happen after we give power to the wrong people

[VacationLover]

Random singer sings at mixed concert "burn him, burn his mother"

Random dude does something the rabbi's don't approve of "apikores!!!"

Yet here we have calls to not judge, to not speak lh, to not talk bad about someone..

Really? Why isn't that relevant when they publicly bashmutz people who don't fit their agenda?

Are you comparing someone's public actions, to
 unverified accusations? There is a process for this. Berland andמשי זהב cases were verified in court. Not by a Safardic BD in Tzafas.

[chevron]

Are you comparing someone's public actions, to
 unverified accusations? There is a process for this. Berland andמשי זהב cases were verified in court. Not by a Safardic BD in Tzafas.

Bias much?  "Sefardic BD" he would have gotten his day in court had he not committed suicide

Yes a therapist and author should be above any doubt. Not only was he the moral guide, he used that position if the accusations are true.

That's why cases like this and meshi zahav are telling

[VacationLover]

Bias much?  "Sefardic BD" he would have gotten his day in court had he not committed suicide

Yes a therapist and author should be above any doubt. Not only was he the moral guide, he used that position if the accusations are true.

That's why cases like this and meshi zahav are telling

Not biased, but if he belongs to a certain crowd in Bnei Braq, where there are dozens of reputable BD, and a BD in Tzasfas announced it. Something doesn't add up. As I mentioned earlier, at least get another BD involved.

(For illustration purposes, just like you understand that it wouldn't be fair from someone in Satmar, Bobov, etc to go to the opposed sides BD, or. בד"ץ vs.שארית. etc. וד"ל)

"if the accusations are true."
100%. This should bring awareness to the issues in our communities of (regular and) powerful people taking advantage of their power to do evil things. However, in this particular case, the vast majority of the story was stirred up by the (anti-Charedy) media. And there is 0 chance to clear his name if it wasn't true.

I just remembered also 'Webermans' case was also in court for a while before finding him guilty. There is a way and a process to report such stories, and it wasn't done here.

[Yehuda57]

I just remembered also 'Webermans' case was also in court for a while before finding him guilty. There is a way and a process to report such stories, and it wasn't done here.

Great example. The victims were tormented, harassed, and are still not believed to this day by many despite the conviction. There were communal fundraisers for him, he had plenty of supporters in the courtroom, and he was painted as a saint despite the eminently credible allegations. We still have no idea how many victims there were because all but one were too afraid to speak up.

How many kids did he abuse because they were afraid to talk? How many victims of other abusers watched that victim get publicly humiliated and decided they want no part of that and kept silent? How many more kids need to get abused because all of a sudden we have to be extremely machmir about lashon hara but extremely meikil on hatzalas nefashos?

This is like bizarro land.

[yfr bachur]

I was recently at an event for young educators in Yerusholayim whos topics included dealing with alleged abuse from authority figures.
The consensus of the (well respected in the field, and known to the US frum community) panelists was that that Bnei Brak is the most advanced chareidi City in Israel at the moment because there is a dedicated BD experienced in investigating these matters. (as opposed to the wild west of JLM where there is not)

There is a way and a process to report such stories, and it wasn't done here.

[rbs-g1.5]

Not biased, but if he belongs to a certain crowd in Bnei Braq, where there are dozens of reputable BD, and a BD in Tzasfas announced it. Something doesn't add up. As I mentioned earlier, at least get another BD involved.

(For illustration purposes, just like you understand that it wouldn't be fair from someone in Satmar, Bobov, etc to go to the opposed sides BD, or. בד"ץ vs.שארית. etc. וד"ל)

"if the accusations are true."
100%. This should bring awareness to the issues in our communities of (regular and) powerful people taking advantage of their power to do evil things. However, in this particular case, the vast majority of the story was stirred up by the (anti-Charedy) media. And there is 0 chance to clear his name if it wasn't true.

I just remembered also 'Webermans' case was also in court for a while before finding him guilty. There is a way and a process to report such stories, and it wasn't done here.

i would emphasize not just a beis din in tzfas rather a dati leumi beis din as opposed to a charedi one.
that being said could be the true reason it was done this way  bec.whoever  had an interest here wanted quick public results.any reasonable charedi beis din is carefull about what they release publicly in עניינים שהשתיקה יפה להם.could be they feel you need to quickly warn the puclic,but the charedi view also worries about the damage to our children who invariably hear and discuss all the sorid details thereby introducing new levels of possible evil into their psyche.
aside from that i find it hard to belive that such a well connected person would have a hard time publicising his self defence if he truly had a way to do so.also his commiting suicide in such a thought out manner (seemingly sound of mind) shows how much emuna and yiras shamayim he had.that gives even more of a reason to belive that when put in  a position of power and influence over vulnerable people he was bound to fall to his taavos.

[yfr bachur]

... all of a sudden we have to be extremely machmir about lashon hara but extremely meikil on hatzalas nefashos?

No. We have to be machmir about both.
There are halachos of lashon hara. They don't change whether the alleged infraction was financial or moral or ethical.
Part of hilchos lashon hara is when we are permitted to disclose information because withholding it may negatively impact others. Hilchos lashan hara also dictates that the one receiving the information may not believe it but may act based on the information for self protection. (sort of kabdeihu vichashdeihu). Going to the secular press, when you have not exhausted every other less damaging avenue, (and as far as we know non of the alleged accusers asked any Rav a shayla whether they were allowed to publicize it in this way) is a violation of lashon hara. This does not excuse any alleged actions.
As for the feelings of the victims, tho paraphrase Ben Shapiro "Halacha doesn't care about your feelings". If we are mechuyav to publicize info to protect the public we must, even if it causes additional trauma. If it is assur to publicize it, we may not, even if THIS cuases additional trauma.

[TimT]

Not biased, but if he belongs to a certain crowd in Bnei Braq, where there are dozens of reputable BD, and a BD in Tzasfas announced it. Something doesn't add up.

Perhaps some of the victims live in tzefas &/or follow R’ Eliyahu. Or perhaps they’re afraid to start in Bnai Brak when dealing with such an influential person. Why should victims go to a B”D in BB because Walder lives there ?

[aygart]

were verified in court. Not by a Safardic BD in Tzafas.

You are preferring the secular Israeli courts over a Sefardic BD in Tzfas? Why?

[aygart]

Not biased, but if he belongs to a certain crowd in Bnei Braq, where there are dozens of reputable BD, and a BD in Tzasfas announced it. Something doesn't add up. As I mentioned earlier, at least get another BD involved.

HTere was a dayan from Bnei Brak involved here.

[Yehuda57]

No. We have to be machmir about both.
There are halachos of lashon hara. They don't change whether the alleged infraction was financial or moral or ethical.
Part of hilchos lashon hara is when we are permitted to disclose information because withholding it may negatively impact others. Hilchos lashan hara also dictates that the one receiving the information may not believe it but may act based on the information for self protection. (sort of kabdeihu vichashdeihu). Going to the secular press, when you have not exhausted every other less damaging avenue, (and as far as we know non of the alleged accusers asked any Rav a shayla whether they were allowed to publicize it in this way) is a violation of lashon hara. This does not excuse any alleged actions.
As for the feelings of the victims, tho paraphrase Ben Shapiro "Halacha doesn't care about your feelings". If we are mechuyav to publicize info to protect the public we must, even if it causes additional trauma. If it is assur to publicize it, we may not, even if THIS cuases additional trauma.

Have you missed the whole conversation? I've long been saying the two are not mutually exclusive. But if - for whatever reason - you believe you have to make a mistake on one side, which side are you going to choose? The reason people are creating this false dichotomy is that they care more about keeping these things quiet than protecting victims. Were the same people this careful about lashon hara in the mikvah this morning when discussing others as they are when defending credibly accused abusers?. That's why anonymous accusations are not enough. No matter how many accusations there, 3, 6, 24, the very fact that they are anonymous is enough to discredit them. Decades of evidence as to how abusers operate isn't enough.

And you seem to be missing that it's not just about victims' "feelings" but publicly discrediting victims doesn't only retraumatize them, but enables the abuse of others to go on and perpetuates the cycle.

[aygart]

(and as far as we know non of the alleged accusers asked any Rav a shayla whether they were allowed to publicize it in this way)

The accusers themselves? They have first hand knowledge. Others who went to them? Do you even know who they are? How would you know one way or another if they discussed it with a Rov?