Chaim Walder dies

[Dan]

On the SC front (why aren't we using his name? Are we chas vshalom protecting the reputation of a dead person that can't defend themselves?) there is a beautiful story written by Chaim Walder of how SC did teshuva right before getting on the airplane on which he died.

The uniqueness of the story is that it doesn't idolize SC or vilify him but rather turns the spotlight onto his special character and sincere warmth and humility without lending to the controversy surrounding the man himself. 
If only we could learn to speak like that about Chaim Walder....

If only CW did teshuva and died of old age instead of suicide, maybe that would have been possible?

[PlatinumGuy]

I personally find the whole conversation excessive (99% of us agree on how to react if the allegations are true, 99% of us agree on appropriate feelings if the allegations are false. The man is dead and there isn't much we can do either way, so it doesn't really matter IMHO).

However, one comment that got me thinking was how the debate would've unfolded if it was 30 people accusing him of having written the book on Shabbos.

[shimino1]

It is a known fact that the American Yated has had ZERO affiliation to the Israeli one for decades, IINM. Rebranding now would make it sound like they did have a connection until now, which IMO would be worse. The Israeli paper is not even on their radar, and for an American paper with a tremendous brand-name to start again with a new name would be a terrible idea, in my opinion.

I would humbly suggest that the vast majority of people on this forum don't understand the subtilties of the Israeli Chareidi printed newspapers, especially the official ones ones by the political parties. I don't think people here realize the importance given to every word printed and especially to every word and title not printed.

To give it a little context, about 10 years ago there were drastic changes made in the Yated newspaper personal. The long standing editor was thrown out and other people were forced to leave as well.
The reason for the changes? The editor refused to place the title "מרן" before Harav Steinmans name which was perceived by everyone as a full out rebellion.

For people that read the Yated every day and know how to read between the lines, the article about Chaim Walders death was in no way as supportive as the Secular/American media outlets raged about.

Just imagine what his petira articles would have looked like if not for the allegations and method of passing.
The article was overall supportive but walks a very fine line and leaves some gaping holes that are meant to be easily seen through.

[YitzyS]

It's interesting but the conversation about SC really sums up what I feel about CW's books.

A rosh yeshiva who likes music once told me that he was at a yeshivish chasunah when SC, who was related, got up to sing, and half the crowd walked out in protest. The rosh yeshiva quipped, "It wasn't that those who left disproved of him any more than the ones who stayed. It's just the the ones who stayed were the ones who understood music, and the ones who walked out were the tone-deaf ones."

I would love to get rid of all of CW's books from my home, on the basis of morality. My main hesitation is that I personally grew up on them, and I love his stories. Even in recent years, I have read all his books, and I've read his early ones dozens of times. I feel like I'm one of the people who stayed inside the chasunah because they loved SC's brilliance. I so badly don't want to throw away CW's books, unless clear Daas Torah compels me to.

[shimino1]

If only CW did teshuva and died of old age instead of suicide, maybe that would have been possible?

We are again assuming he definitely did it?

Regarding your son (and everyone else's) you are kinda doomed either way.
I don't think you want to explain to your son with enough background and detail what exactly CW is accused of to make him understand why you are removing his beloved books and throwing them into the trash.

I think it is the same problem with teaching our kids about awareness. Either you scare all the innocence out of them and leave them suspecting every friendly, benign touch from any adult and teach them not to trust their teachers, neighbors, uncles Etc Or, you give them vague warnings that anyway can't cover every situation and regardless of their education, the power dynamics between a child and adult, especially someone they trust and are close with will always favor the abuser.

I thank Hashem that none of my kids are old enough to know what happened.

[Dan]

It's interesting but the conversation about SC really sums up what I feel about CW's books.

A rosh yeshiva who likes music once told me that he was at a yeshivish chasunah when SC, who was related, got up to sing, and half the crowd walked out in protest. The rosh yeshiva quipped, "It wasn't that those who left disproved of him any more than the ones who stayed. It's just the the ones who stayed were the ones who understood music, and the ones who walked out were the tone-deaf ones."

I would love to get rid of all of CW's books from my home, on the basis of morality. My main hesitation is that I personally grew up on them, and I love his stories. Even in recent years, I have read all his books, and I've read his early ones dozens of times. I feel like I'm one of the people who stayed inside the chasunah because they loved SC's brilliance. I so badly don't want to throw away CW's books, unless clear Daas Torah compels me to.

Can you refute the points I paraphrased upthread to make it possible to keep the books?

[YitzyS]

Can you refute the points I paraphrased upthread to make it possible to keep the books?

I didn't have time to read all the posts yet, as I've been busy all day. I did notice one of the posts links to Instagram, but my filter blocks that. I'll IyH read all the other posts later tonight or tomorrow.

[TimT]

I thank Hashem that none of my kids are old enough to know what happened.

Prepare yourself. The day’s gonna come when your kid comes home & asks you if this & this really happened.
Being there doing that

[shimino1]

Can you refute the points I paraphrased upthread to make it possible to keep the books?

Do you actually vet every book that enters your home not just for content but for the morality of the writer as well?
Do you vet every song you listen to and make sure the singer is an erlich yid?
Do you only watch movies after going over the actors bio's one by one and making sure none of them was ever accused of moral failings?
Do you only shop at stores who's know shareholders are nice upstanding family men?

Are we perhaps using a much stricter approach when we decide to "Cancel Chaim Walder"? If so, why?

P.S: Obviously if the allegations, especially those of sexual predatory are proved accurate, it will change peoples perspective but from everything I personally heard until now it sounds like most of the viable reports were of moral misconduct rather than criminal misconduct and of course nothing has been proven. 

[dasmo801]

The SC analogy is extremely flawed. SC didn't present himself as a chosheve respectable member of the charedi community. His history notwithstanding, he was מחוץ למחנה . He didn't host a well respected radio show nor did he wrote a column in THE charedi paper. We listened to his music but that didn't make him a דעה at our supper table. His crossing of halachic lines was well known but many (most) felt that it wasn't necessary to avoid his music because he was already on the outside.

Also, the nature of what was known at the time was very different than the current case. He was known to cross some lines, he didn't hide it. Any stronger allegations were only made after he was no longer around to defend himself.

[Something Fishy]

On the SC front (why aren't we using his name? Are we chas vshalom protecting the reputation of a dead person that can't defend themselves?) there is a beautiful story written by Chaim Walder of how SC did teshuva right before getting on the airplane on which he died.

The uniqueness of the story is that it doesn't idolize SC or vilify him but rather turns the spotlight onto his special character and sincere warmth and humility without lending to the controversy surrounding the man himself. 
If only we could learn to speak like that about Chaim Walder....

It's well known that SC came back as a gilgul, as a mezuzah on a Bais Yaakov.

All the girls kiss him and he can't kiss them back.

[AsherO]

His music is very emotional/spiritual & he could’ve used that as a way to get to people. If there are victims they might be traumatized when they walk into a shul & hear his music or see adds for his style events with his name prominently displayed. Shouldn’t his music, as nice as it is, go into the trash ?

Nothing I said contradicts that

[Dan]

I didn't have time to read all the posts yet, as I've been busy all day. I did notice one of the posts links to Instagram, but my filter blocks that. I'll IyH read all the other posts later tonight or tomorrow.

Why we need to throw away his books:
https://www.instagram.com/tv/CYEQhywhb1Q/

Paraphrasing...

Given that so many have come forward, we can't make excuses as if this didn't happen. And then he committed suicide rather than face victims and courts.

1. Walder didn’t write book about math or science, he wrote about morality. He set himself up to be a moral compass for our children, but wasn’t able to keep his own moral compass.

His books speak to our minds and souls, but you don’t know which stories are about one of his victims who went to him at the most vulnerable point in their life, and then he abused them.

The children who say I’m the Yael, I’m the Rivkah, I’m the Leah, that he went on to abuse, they’re not going to come forward, but we know that their stories are told in these books.

2. If you think your children are too young and won’t know what he did, eventually they will know. And then they’ll ask you if you know that he was a sexual predator and when you say you did, they will ask why you read them his books. Perhaps you'll answer that it’s a grey area, but you’re setting yourself up for failure because there is no grey area for abuse, for someone who pretends to do something for Hashem’s sake, but really it’s for their own twisted desires.

3. When we say we want to hear the stories of victims and they should feel safe to come forward. This story has triggered emotions in victims who say that they would burn his books, as he used them to gain money and fame and gain access to vulnerable children. His own family is thus a victim and anyone who brought his books into their home is also a victim.

Even though he decided to leave this world, leaving survivors with no closure and no way to confront their abuser, we can say to his victims and all abuse victims that we as a community don’t stand for this and we will eradicate the evil from within us and we take it out of our homes. We have to make sure children know there is no grey area and we can’t tolerate or forgive abuse or keep any remnant as part of our lives.

[Yehuda57]

It's interesting but the conversation about SC really sums up what I feel about CW's books.

With due respect to the Rosh Yeshiva, it's a cute story, but just plain false, and actually quite insulting. If you don't want to walk out when carlebach sings, that's a legitimate position, but to mock those who had a different position says more about how comfortable you are with your position than them.

You don't have to take my word for it, others here can vouch for my grandfather’s musical knowledge and ability. But more, he knew carlebach, was friends with him. It was extremely painful for him to watch him use his talents in the ways he did.

People didn't walk out because of Carlebach's sexual abuse, that wasn't known or discussed in those days. They protested his flagrant disregard for halacha in the name of bringing people closer to yiddishkeit.

If someone sang a Carlebach song in front of my grandfather, they got a stare down for the ages. Not because he was "tone deaf" - he gave you a similar look if you got a note wrong in Der Pastach - but because of the painful memories it elicited.

Having said that, I don't know that he would have walked out of a wedding, he probably would have stayed and danced with his old friend, even as it pained him to overhear Esa Einai the next day.

That's more connected to what's at play here. When you see, or when your kid sees a Chaim Walder book, what is going to come to mind? I'll never be able to read kids speak without wondering if he based this story on a child he abused emotionally or physically. An abuse survivor who sees people's speak on your shelf will immidiately be triggered and retraumatized.

Does that happen when carlebach music plays? For some, yes, for 99.9% of people no.

[Moshe123]

https://twitter.com/NAMN321/status/1476275559684612102?t=7lQWWNZo4ZmYYq3BRLJqQA&s=19

[YitzyS]

With due respect to the Rosh Yeshiva, it's a cute story, but just plain false, and actually quite insulting. If you don't want to walk out when carlebach sings, that's a legitimate position, but to mock those who had a different position says more about how comfortable you are with your position than them.

You don't have to take my word for it, others here can vouch for my grandfather’s musical knowledge and ability. But more, he knew carlebach, was friends with him. It was extremely painful for him to watch him use his talents in the ways he did.

People didn't walk out because of Carlebach's sexual abuse, that wasn't known or discussed in those days. They protested his flagrant disregard for halacha in the name of bringing people closer to yiddishkeit.

If someone sang a Carlebach song in front of my grandfather, they got a stare down for the ages. Not because he was "tone deaf" - he gave you a similar look if you got a note wrong in Der Pastach - but because of the painful memories it elicited.

Having said that, I don't know that he would have walked out of a wedding, he probably would have stayed and danced with his old friend, even as it pained him to overhear Esa Einai the next day.

That's more connected to what's at play here. When you see, or when your kid sees a Chaim Walder book, what is going to come to mind? I'll never be able to read kids speak without wondering if he based this story on a child he abused emotionally or physically. An abuse survivor who sees people's speak on your shelf will immidiately be triggered and retraumatized.

Does that happen when carlebach music plays? For some, yes, for 99.9% of people no.

The rosh yeshiva was talking about a specific demographic of yeshivaleit of which he was a part of, and he didn't say it to mock them. He was trying to bring out that many people have a harder time acting out against something they like.

I agree with much of what you are saying about CW, though I think the contrast is accentuated now due to the lack of hindsight. In 10 or 20 years from now, the abuse won't be as raw, and it will move on the scale closer to the way people view SC, IMO. I am NOT saying that this should happen, but I think it unfortunately will.

[AsherO]

If only CW did teshuva and died of old age instead of suicide, maybe that would have been possible?

If only CW did teshuva before he died

[AsherO]

I personally find the whole conversation excessive (99% of us agree on how to react if the allegations are true, 99% of us agree on appropriate feelings if the allegations are false. The man is dead and there isn't much we can do either way, so it doesn't really matter IMHO).

However, one comment that got me thinking was how the debate would've unfolded if it was 30 people accusing him of having written the book on Shabbos.

Then it would become the outwardly-frum-people-who-privately-don’t-keep-Shabbos master thread. In case it’s become another master thread for a much more important topic.

Whether the man is guilty or innocent, it’s a good thing that his death has put this topic on the agenda. As for whether it belongs in a thread with this title, is for a different discussion, feel free to use the RTM button to voice your opinion on that.

[Yehuda57]

The rosh yeshiva was talking about a specific demographic of yeshivaleit of which he was a part of, and he didn't say it to mock them. He was trying to bring out that many people have a harder time acting out against something they like.

I agree with much of what you are saying about CW, though I think the contrast is accentuated now due to the lack of hindsight. In 10 or 20 years from now, the abuse won't be as raw, and it will move on the scale closer to the way people view SC, IMO. I am NOT saying that this should happen, but I think it unfortunately will.

Of course it's more difficult to boycott something you love. It's also arrogant to assume that the ones who do go through with the boycott must not like it as much as you.

[aygart]

If only CW did teshuva he probably would still be alive

FTFY