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I created an account to say this

I am a survivor of abuse

I tried to type up a longer, more detailed post but it got too hard. The bottom line is the following

There's no such thing as universal feelings, reactions, desires, needs that all victims share. Each one is an individual who suffered alone and carries the unique scars that stay with them and each one will react to future situations in life in their own way.

Therefore, there is no single response to abuse that will leave all victims feeling safe, secure, validated, supported, closure and everything else all the well meaning people here want to give them.

However, I think there is a single response that would leave all victims feeling further pain and trauma and that is "It can't be."

Rabbi Shimon Russell - How to Safeguard and Protect our Children

https://youtu.be/fefqSvXf0JI


« Last edited by Yehuda57 on January 12, 2022, 05:44:00 PM »

Author Topic: Chaim Walder dies  (Read 58744 times)

Offline ExGingi

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Re: Chaim Walder dies
« Reply #1220 on: January 11, 2022, 07:58:43 PM »
You canít imagine the victim could get closure from it? Whether thatís justified, moral, or healthy is another question.

What does closure mean?

Where does one draw the line? If conviction, losing appeal and going to jail not enough?

What if after this the victim doesn't feel closure? Does she get another chance for retribution?

Don't get me wrong, the abuser deserves what's coming to him, he doesn't seem remourseful one bit. But this seems to hurt the family more than the abuser himself. (I don't know if Israeli inmates treat child molesters similar to what is rumored to happen in the US. If they do I think that should be part of the "closure" equation).
I've been waiting over 5 years with bated breath for someone to say that!
-- Dan

Offline AsherO

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Re: Chaim Walder dies
« Reply #1221 on: January 11, 2022, 08:02:19 PM »
What does closure mean?

Where does one draw the line? If conviction, losing appeal and going to jail not enough?

What if after this the victim doesn't feel closure? Does she get another chance for retribution?

Don't get me wrong, the abuser deserves what's coming to him, he doesn't seem remourseful one bit. But this seems to hurt the family more than the abuser himself. (I don't know if Israeli inmates treat child molesters similar to what is rumored to happen in the US. If they do I think that should be part of the "closure" equation).

In no way am I saying the victim should be afforded anything they want (at the expense of others) in the name of closure. My answer remains the same:

This is where AYLOR might be relevant, but since youíre asking ďis it rightĒ or ďis it just vengeanceĒ Iíd say the survivor and their therapist is probably best positioned to answer your question.

Offline ExGingi

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Re: Chaim Walder dies
« Reply #1222 on: January 11, 2022, 08:08:36 PM »
In no way am I saying the victim should be afforded anything they want (at the expense of others) in the name of closure. My answer remains the same:
This is where AYLOR might be relevant, but since youíre asking ďis it rightĒ or ďis it just vengeanceĒ Iíd say the survivor and their therapist is probably best positioned to answer your question.

What I hear you saying is that it is subjective and up to the victim and their therapist. I am sorry, but I don't buy that. What kind of therapy is it, if it involves inflicting additional pain and suffering on the innocent family?
I've been waiting over 5 years with bated breath for someone to say that!
-- Dan

Offline AsherO

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Re: Chaim Walder dies
« Reply #1223 on: January 11, 2022, 08:14:13 PM »


What I hear you saying is that it is subjective and up to the victim and their therapist. I am sorry, but I don't buy that. What kind of therapy is it, if it involves inflicting additional pain and suffering on the innocent family?

You asked if it serves a purpose, maybe it does, the victim might be able to explain to you how, I canít speak to their motivation.

Their therapist might be able to explain to you how it might serve a higher purpose, and maybe when you hear that justification you might say hmmm, I didnít consider that.

All Iím saying is that I canít explain it, but that I also canít question it since I donít know the facts. Just because the victim asks for it doesnít mean itís justified or that it should be done. And that is where a Rabbi would come in. If itís just vindictive ďI want to hurt them because they hurt meĒ then Iím pretty sure the therapist would tell you they didnít think itís a good idea. Perpetuating hurt isnít therapeutic.

IOW, Iím not saying theyíre the arbiters, Iím saying they might have a better answer for you than anyone else here.

Offline AsherO

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Re: Chaim Walder dies
« Reply #1224 on: January 11, 2022, 10:37:06 PM »
- we need more awareness of this issue in our community
-we need to believe the victim and support them in every way possible
-we need to teach our children the basics of staying far from strangers or people who are too friendly and touchy.
-regarding going public AYLOR
-regarding revenge AYLOR
-this thread is only to support the victims and bring awareness to abusers.

Item 4 and 5 are (potentially, and how they manifested in this topic) a distraction to the first three objectives. The final item is contradictory to items 4-5 and are not necessarily presented in a way the completely reflect the views of most of the people who posted in this topic.

Nice summary @vacation lover, but your positions taken in this group were met with a lot of resistance, so itís important to add my disclaimer to your list, for context/transparency.

Feel free to add your own disclaimer to mine.

Offline S209

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Re: Chaim Walder dies
« Reply #1225 on: January 11, 2022, 10:56:32 PM »
Item 4 and 5 are (potentially, and how they manifested in this topic) a distraction to the first three objectives. The final item is contradictory to items 4-5 and are not necessarily presented in a way the completely reflect the views of most of the people who posted in this topic.

Nice summary @vacation lover, but your positions taken in this group were met with a lot of resistance, so itís important to add my disclaimer to your list, for context/transparency.

Feel free to add your own disclaimer to mine.
Wrong @. Poor @vacation lover

Offline WAM

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Re: Chaim Walder dies
« Reply #1226 on: January 11, 2022, 11:07:11 PM »
Wrong @. Poor @vacation lover
So lets give @VacationLover his due:

Item 4 and 5 are (potentially, and how they manifested in this topic) a distraction to the first three objectives. The final item is contradictory to items 4-5 and are not necessarily presented in a way the completely reflect the views of most of the people who posted in this topic.

Nice summary @VacationLover, but your positions taken in this group were met with a lot of resistance, so itís important to add my disclaimer to your list, for context/transparency.

Feel free to add your own disclaimer to mine.

Offline VacationLover

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Re: Chaim Walder dies
« Reply #1227 on: January 11, 2022, 11:55:11 PM »
Wrong @. Poor @vacation lover
So lets give @VacationLover his due:
Item 4 and 5 are (potentially, and how they manifested in this topic) a distraction to the first three objectives. The final item is contradictory to items 4-5 and are not necessarily presented in a way the completely reflect the views of most of the people who posted in this topic.

Nice summary @vacation lover, but your positions taken in this group were met with a lot of resistance, so itís important to add my disclaimer to your list, for context/transparency.

Feel free to add your own disclaimer to mine.
This isn't necessarily my opinion. (Although I fully agree to the first 3)
This was a reply to
Can we get like a summary of the convo every 50 posts or so so I know where this thread is up to? :-\
they are all separate points that I thought describes this thread in a nutshell... :)

Offline yuneeq

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Re: Chaim Walder dies
« Reply #1228 on: January 12, 2022, 02:26:27 AM »
To go off on a little tangent - I think we all agree that we couldíve had some early signals and saved a lot of CW victims if his extramarital affairs were more well known.

Which leads to my question - does this mean that every person that has an extramarital affair should be exposed or is it specifically when theyíre involved in child facing or therapy situations? Or perhaps even in child facing/therapy situations we should keep quiet as long as the perp agrees to relinquish their role?
"If you fall, I will be there." -Floor

Offline newaccount

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Re: Chaim Walder dies
« Reply #1229 on: January 12, 2022, 11:48:31 AM »
I created an account to say this

I am a survivor of abuse

I tried to type up a longer, more detailed post but it got too hard. The bottom line is the following

There's no such thing as universal feelings, reactions, desires, needs that all victims share. Each one is an individual who suffered alone and carries the unique scars that stay with them and each one will react to future situations in life in their own way.

Therefore, there is no single response to abuse that will leave all victims feeling safe, secure, validated, supported, closure and everything else all the well meaning people here want to give them.

However, I think there is a single response that would leave all victims feeling further pain and trauma and that is "It can't be."

Offline AsherO

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Re: Chaim Walder dies
« Reply #1230 on: January 12, 2022, 12:14:05 PM »
I created an account to say this

I am a survivor of abuse

I tried to type up a longer, more detailed post but it got too hard. The bottom line is the following

There's no such thing as universal feelings, reactions, desires, needs that all victims share. Each one is an individual who suffered alone and carries the unique scars that stay with them and each one will react to future situations in life in their own way.

Therefore, there is no single response to abuse that will leave all victims feeling safe, secure, validated, supported, closure and everything else all the well meaning people here want to give them.

However, I think there is a single response that would leave all victims feeling further pain and trauma and that is "It can't be."

Thank you for the courage and strength to speak up. You are right, we donít have all the answers or ďthe right right wordsĒ, and in a sense perhaps no words will suffice.

You matter. Your feelings are valid. Youíre deserving. You deserve to be accepted as you are. Youíre entitled. Those words might sound cliche, but I went back several times to read what you wrote and those are the affirmations that came to mind.

Offline sguitarist18

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Re: Chaim Walder dies
« Reply #1231 on: January 12, 2022, 01:58:48 PM »
I created an account to say this

I am a survivor of abuse

I tried to type up a longer, more detailed post but it got too hard. The bottom line is the following

There's no such thing as universal feelings, reactions, desires, needs that all victims share. Each one is an individual who suffered alone and carries the unique scars that stay with them and each one will react to future situations in life in their own way.

Therefore, there is no single response to abuse that will leave all victims feeling safe, secure, validated, supported, closure and everything else all the well meaning people here want to give them.

However, I think there is a single response that would leave all victims feeling further pain and trauma and that is "It can't be."

Thank you for your courage.

Offline Moshe123

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Re: Chaim Walder dies
« Reply #1232 on: January 12, 2022, 04:22:05 PM »
I created an account to say this

I am a survivor of abuse

I tried to type up a longer, more detailed post but it got too hard. The bottom line is the following

There's no such thing as universal feelings, reactions, desires, needs that all victims share. Each one is an individual who suffered alone and carries the unique scars that stay with them and each one will react to future situations in life in their own way.

Therefore, there is no single response to abuse that will leave all victims feeling safe, secure, validated, supported, closure and everything else all the well meaning people here want to give them.

However, I think there is a single response that would leave all victims feeling further pain and trauma and that is "It can't be."

💔 💓

Offline WonderingYid

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Re: Chaim Walder dies
« Reply #1233 on: January 12, 2022, 04:53:46 PM »
To go off on a little tangent - I think we all agree that we couldíve had some early signals and saved a lot of CW victims if his extramarital affairs were more well known.

Which leads to my question - does this mean that every person that has an extramarital affair should be exposed or is it specifically when theyíre involved in child facing or therapy situations? Or perhaps even in child facing/therapy situations we should keep quiet as long as the perp agrees to relinquish their role?

Exactly. One of the people in the most recent Headlines episode made this point. If the guy is hanging around shul and doesn't have a position with kids, he can still build a relationship with kids, just by asking for or pouring a cup of soda, etc.

Offline ExGingi

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Re: Chaim Walder dies
« Reply #1234 on: January 12, 2022, 05:02:03 PM »
If the guy is hanging around shul and doesn't have a position with kids, he can still build a relationship with kids, just by asking for or pouring a cup of soda, etc.

Sometimes it's a relationship, and sometimes it's even less than that. An episode comes to mind where one Shabbos one of my friends' kids (can't recall if he was pre-Bar Mitzvah at the time, or just about Bar Mitzvah) was davening next to me on Shabbos, when I noticed someone trying to get touchy with him. The kid didn't know what to make of it, and myself being a little naive, wasn't 100% sure if it was what I was afraid of, so I whispered to a fellow mispalel (who also happens to be physically strong), he confirmed that I wasn't imagining and that it was indeed inappropriate, and put a stop to it promptly. After Shabbos I spoke to the kid's mother who thanked me and had a talk with her son about how to react if anything like this ever happens again. This episode was something that happened without any relationship building. I can see lots of "opportunities" for abusers to build relationships with kids in shul (especially if the kids aren't 100% of the time next to their fathers). It's simply scary!
I've been waiting over 5 years with bated breath for someone to say that!
-- Dan

Offline flyingace

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Re: Chaim Walder dies
« Reply #1235 on: January 12, 2022, 05:19:35 PM »
Sometimes it's a relationship, and sometimes it's even less than that. An episode comes to mind where one Shabbos one of my friends' kids (can't recall if he was pre-Bar Mitzvah at the time, or just about Bar Mitzvah) was davening next to me on Shabbos, when I noticed someone trying to get touchy with him. The kid didn't know what to make of it, and myself being a little naive, wasn't 100% sure if it was what I was afraid of, so I whispered to a fellow mispalel (who also happens to be physically strong), he confirmed that I wasn't imagining and that it was indeed inappropriate, and put a stop to it promptly. After Shabbos I spoke to the kid's mother who thanked me and had a talk with her son about how to react if anything like this ever happens again. This episode was something that happened without any relationship building. I can see lots of "opportunities" for abusers to build relationships with kids in shul (especially if the kids aren't 100% of the time next to their fathers). It's simply scary!
Many people experience flashing, grabbing and unwanted bumping on the streets and buses of New York. Granted a fellow mispallel in shul is more disturbing than a nutty stranger, but it is vastly different than the ongoing and long term trauma of molestation.
« Last Edit: January 12, 2022, 05:25:44 PM by flyingace »

Offline Yehuda57

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Re: Chaim Walder dies
« Reply #1236 on: January 12, 2022, 05:28:16 PM »
I created an account to say this

I am a survivor of abuse

I tried to type up a longer, more detailed post but it got too hard. The bottom line is the following

There's no such thing as universal feelings, reactions, desires, needs that all victims share. Each one is an individual who suffered alone and carries the unique scars that stay with them and each one will react to future situations in life in their own way.

Therefore, there is no single response to abuse that will leave all victims feeling safe, secure, validated, supported, closure and everything else all the well meaning people here want to give them.

However, I think there is a single response that would leave all victims feeling further pain and trauma and that is "It can't be."
I'm so sorry that you have endured this. Thank you for fighting through the pain to express this so articulately.

Quote from: ExGingi
Yehuda57 needs to spew a certain amount of sarcasm in order to survive through the day.

Offline AsherO

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Re: Chaim Walder dies
« Reply #1237 on: January 12, 2022, 05:45:30 PM »
Many people experience flashing, grabbing and unwanted bumping on the streets and buses of New York. Granted a fellow mispallel in shul is more disturbing than a nutty stranger, but it is vastly different than the ongoing and long term trauma of molestation.

The trauma of the same or a similar experience can differ from one person to another, and each of them are equally deserving to be supported and validated.

Offline EliJelly

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Re: Chaim Walder dies
« Reply #1238 on: January 12, 2022, 05:54:15 PM »
Sometimes it's a relationship, and sometimes it's even less than that. An episode comes to mind where one Shabbos one of my friends' kids (can't recall if he was pre-Bar Mitzvah at the time, or just about Bar Mitzvah) was davening next to me on Shabbos, when I noticed someone trying to get touchy with him. The kid didn't know what to make of it, and myself being a little naive, wasn't 100% sure if it was what I was afraid of, so I whispered to a fellow mispalel (who also happens to be physically strong), he confirmed that I wasn't imagining and that it was indeed inappropriate, and put a stop to it promptly. After Shabbos I spoke to the kid's mother who thanked me and had a talk with her son about how to react if anything like this ever happens again. This episode was something that happened without any relationship building. I can see lots of "opportunities" for abusers to build relationships with kids in shul (especially if the kids aren't 100% of the time next to their fathers). It's simply scary!
In broad daylight, sick and scary!!

Offline flyingace

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Re: Chaim Walder dies
« Reply #1239 on: January 12, 2022, 06:00:16 PM »
The trauma of the same or a similar experience can differ from one person to another, and each of them are equally deserving to be supported and validated.
All humans who experience disturbing events should be validated. Do you believe the trauma of a random unwanted touching to be the same as that of a long term molestation?