Author Topic: False allegations  (Read 5924 times)

Offline Saulius

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False allegations
« on: January 03, 2022, 11:55:37 AM »
With the Chaim Walder thread going over 40 pages, one thing that does not get any attention are families that were destroyed by false abuse allegations. In one case prominent Rabonim heard false abuse allegations, without hazmana to the parents, paskened that their young children have to be relocated -- and the children got relocated to other families overseas, and were forbidden to have any contact whatsoever with their biological parents. (This was done without any gov't authorities involved.).  Anybody who tried to get involved got death threats from prominent rabonim and rosh yeshivas. Parents didn't even know where their children were living. Case went on for years and years, with parents unable to get them back or have any communications with them. The rabonim refused to hear the parents side of the story even after the fact. Now proof the abuse allegations are false, when the children eventually became adults, they became independent and got married, they re-established contact with their parents, some of them (as married couples) even moved back in with them.
« Last Edit: January 03, 2022, 12:11:16 PM by Saulius »

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Re: False abuse allegations
« Reply #1 on: January 03, 2022, 12:00:36 PM »
Huh? How did the children get "relocated"?

Why is this different from falsely accusing anyone of any aveirah or crime? You can remove the word abuse from your header. IMO its irrelevant to your story.


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Re: False abuse allegations
« Reply #2 on: January 03, 2022, 12:06:27 PM »
False allegations can and do destroy lives. I don't think anyone would disagree with that.
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Re: False allegations
« Reply #3 on: January 03, 2022, 12:32:19 PM »
With the Chaim Walder thread going over 40 pages, one thing that does not get any attention are families that were destroyed by false abuse allegations. In one case prominent Rabonim heard false abuse allegations, without hazmana to the parents, paskened that their young children have to be relocated -- and the children got relocated to other families overseas, and were forbidden to have any contact whatsoever with their biological parents. (This was done without any gov't authorities involved.).  Anybody who tried to get involved got death threats from prominent rabonim and rosh yeshivas. Parents didn't even know where their children were living. Case went on for years and years, with parents unable to get them back or have any communications with them. The rabonim refused to hear the parents side of the story even after the fact. Now proof the abuse allegations are false, when the children eventually became adults, they became independent and got married, they re-established contact with their parents, some of them (as married couples) even moved back in with them.

This claim keeps coming up and its a little bit of a red herring IMO. I have no reason to doubt any of the details of this alleged story, but those involved with this parsha claim that they almost never see totally false accusations and when it does happen the allegations are easily debunked. Also, there are very different kinds of cases. For example, a couple that's going through a messy divorce and custody battle and a claim of abuse is made against one side is not the same as multiple students of a specific teacher, over a period of time, alleging abuse.
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Re: False allegations
« Reply #4 on: January 03, 2022, 07:07:02 PM »
This claim keeps coming up and its a little bit of a red herring IMO. I have no reason to doubt any of the details of this alleged story, but those involved with this parsha claim that they almost never see totally false accusations and when it does happen the allegations are easily debunked. Also, there are very different kinds of cases. For example, a couple that's going through a messy divorce and custody battle and a claim of abuse is made against one side is not the same as multiple students of a specific teacher, over a period of time, alleging abuse.
I'm not a baki in Sefer Chofetz Chaim, but can you point me to where the criteria of hilchos lashon harah mentions that one may believe a story if it seems very plausible? (I'm asking seriously)

Offline WonderingYid

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Re: False allegations
« Reply #5 on: January 04, 2022, 06:06:17 PM »
I'm not a baki in Sefer Chofetz Chaim, but can you point me to where the criteria of hilchos lashon harah mentions that one may believe a story if it seems very plausible? (I'm asking seriously)
You can still be careful wo believing.

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Re: False allegations
« Reply #6 on: January 04, 2022, 06:14:51 PM »
Knowing firsthand someone who's life was ruined from a false claim, (Was confirmed by the accuser later that it was false) I strongly support investigating every claim thoroughly, and only then should it be announced to the public.

And also, it should be investigated by at least 2 BD etc. And if possible get a response from the accused before going public.

I think the 5 steps recommended by the Mishpacha is a good starting point. https://mishpacha.com/for-this-we-weep/

ETA: I think everyone who is involved in a bumpy GET, can also confirm that it is so easy, and there are multiple instances of false accusations. For instance cases where accusations are brought up in family court, and when later negotiating with a mediator, the party filing the allegations agrees to pull the accusations in return for something they requests. Usually this happens when one side wants something, and knows that they will get it this was.
« Last Edit: January 04, 2022, 06:20:43 PM by VacationLover »

Offline sddd

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Re: False allegations
« Reply #7 on: January 04, 2022, 07:08:47 PM »
You can still be careful wo believing.

The problem with being careful while it sounds terrific and super reasonable is that its hard to implement correctly for the masses. Meaning, in closed societies like ours, where we are all reading the same stories, sharing the same gossip / hock / accusations, if EVERYONE is "careful" >>> in practical decoded day to day implementation that means when he walks by you you'll kinda ignore him or shuffle away, stay out of his store if he runs a small business in the community, not have his son over at your house, not let your son date his daughter,  etc etc etc x 1000, essentially youve banned, excommunicated him because everyone will be doing the same exact thing. Which is kinda of what cancel culture is.

It MUST be done judiciously and that is a tall order on a mass scale.

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Re: False allegations
« Reply #8 on: January 04, 2022, 07:10:16 PM »
Knowing firsthand someone who's life was ruined from a false claim, (Was confirmed by the accuser later that it was false) I strongly support investigating every claim thoroughly, and only then should it be announced to the public.

And also, it should be investigated by at least 2 BD etc. And if possible get a response from the accused before going public.

I think the 5 steps recommended by the Mishpacha is a good starting point. https://mishpacha.com/for-this-we-weep/

ETA: I think everyone who is involved in a bumpy GET, can also confirm that it is so easy, and there are multiple instances of false accusations. For instance cases where accusations are brought up in family court, and when later negotiating with a mediator, the party filing the allegations agrees to pull the accusations in return for something they requests. Usually this happens when one side wants something, and knows that they will get it this was.
What about people with 20+ claims?

Offline VacationLover

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Re: False allegations
« Reply #9 on: January 04, 2022, 07:23:03 PM »
What about people with 20+ claims?
even 1 claim is enough to trigger a full investigation.
20 claims? Or 1 person announcing 20 claims?

Offline Saulius

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Re: False allegations
« Reply #10 on: January 04, 2022, 08:36:04 PM »
Knowing firsthand someone who's life was ruined from a false claim, (Was confirmed by the accuser later that it was false) I strongly support investigating every claim thoroughly, and only then should it be announced to the public.

And also, it should be investigated by at least 2 BD etc. And if possible get a response from the accused before going public.

I think the 5 steps recommended by the Mishpacha is a good starting point. https://mishpacha.com/for-this-we-weep/

ETA: I think everyone who is involved in a bumpy GET, can also confirm that it is so easy, and there are multiple instances of false accusations. For instance cases where accusations are brought up in family court, and when later negotiating with a mediator, the party filing the allegations agrees to pull the accusations in return for something they requests. Usually this happens when one side wants something, and knows that they will get it this was.

It's more complicated then this -- you can have 2 BD with gedolei hador, if dayanim do not follow halacha - justice will be perverted.

You need to standup a Beis Din of three dayanim who know nothing of the case, and not yet heard any side of the story - else they are posul.

In halacha it is assur for any Dayan to hear one side of a dispute in the absence of the other party, or to read any documents relating to the dispute before the case commences.

See this blog post where it brings sources from the Maharal on criticism of dayanim who hear only one side. http://daattorah.blogspot.com/2014/02/maharals-criticism-of-dayanim-who-only.html?m=1 and Peirush HaGR"A on Esther 1:7

Plus, majority of dayanim do not know anything about malignant narcissism and borderline personality disorder. And then in cases, you can have hiding in the background an extremely wealthy individual, who has tens of million dollars to spare and they have a victim who they want to destroy / take revenge on. A wealthy individual can control dozens of people into giving false testimony, plus dayanim can also be bribed (without them even knowing it).
« Last Edit: January 04, 2022, 08:39:18 PM by Saulius »

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Re: False allegations
« Reply #11 on: January 04, 2022, 08:40:34 PM »
I'm not a baki in Sefer Chofetz Chaim, but can you point me to where the criteria of hilchos lashon harah mentions that one may believe a story if it seems very plausible? (I'm asking seriously)
Perek 7 seifim 10-12 (around there).

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Re: False allegations
« Reply #12 on: January 04, 2022, 08:44:44 PM »
It's more complicated then this -- you can have 2 BD with gedolei hador, if dayanim do not follow halacha - justice will be perverted.

You need to standup a Beis Din of three dayanim who know nothing of the case, and not yet heard any side of the story - else they are posul.

In halacha it is assur for any Dayan to hear one side of a dispute in the absence of the other party, or to read any documents relating to the dispute before the case commences.

See this blog post where it brings sources from the Maharal on criticism of dayanim who hear only one side. http://daattorah.blogspot.com/2014/02/maharals-criticism-of-dayanim-who-only.html?m=1 and Peirush HaGR"A on Esther 1:7

Plus, majority of dayanim do not know anything about malignant narcissism and borderline personality disorder. And then in cases, you can have hiding in the background an extremely wealthy individual, who has tens of million dollars to spare and they have a victim who they want to destroy / take revenge on. A wealthy individual can control dozens of people into giving false testimony, plus dayanim can also be bribed (without them even knowing it).
This isn't chosen mishpat. Do you have a source that the rules are the same?
Feelings don't care about your facts

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Re: False allegations
« Reply #13 on: January 04, 2022, 08:59:11 PM »
Because I know only one (uncommon) side of such a story, we should make it super hard to go public with an accusation, including multiple Batei Din with lots of extra guidelines in place to hinder them before we do anything, potential victims be darned.
I paraphrased your quote.

I get it. I also know of a case where itís pretty evident the man was falsely accused. It stinks, and should be avoided at all costs. The difference is, Iím also all too familiar with cases of severe abuse. And that stinks more.

I know a case where an entire family is currently being completely torn apart because one child in the family was repeatedly abused by a relative. For various reasons they have not come forward with the name, although those close to them know exactly who it is. Do you know what the family is going through? ETA: <removed potentially identifying information>

This is the day to day life in the home of *one* victim of *one* abuser. Who you never heard of and likely will never hear of. There are thousands like him roaming the streets. Being ďinvestigatedĒ. Dragging feet. Afraid of backlash. The family seems mostly regular to outsiders. The abuser is still a pretty respectable guy in his community, where presumably others have no idea.

More victims having their lives for all intents and purposes snuffed out because we dragged our feet for 25 years ďinvestigatingĒ. Abusers roaming free, preying on thousands of vulnerable children for lack of conclusive evidence to lock them up or even warn the public. Thatís the flip side of the scenario you paint. And this scenario is MUCH more commonplace.

Itís great to be extra machmir on loshon hora. But donít you realize you are risking the issur of lo saamod at the same time? What do you say to that?

I donít know the answers, and Iíve said so repeatedly. Whatís more important? I donít know. But your blasť and completely dismissive attitude toward the other side of the equation is what really bothers me. You claim to know how to go about this: how did you reach that conclusion? The more onerous the process the better? Why do you think so?

Do you truly understand the pain and devastation even *one* incidence of abuse can leave on a victim? Do you get what you are risking? Why does protecting the potentially (but unlikely to be) innocent abuser take precedence to protecting the potentially (and very likely) future victims?

Would you have the same attitude towards a murder suspect? And with a murder conviction  there is usually not more than a body and a weapon. Here you have a live victim making a claim!

Speak to a professional in the field. Spend a few minutes listening to victims of abuse talk about their lives. Develop some empathy towards the real victims in the cw story. Then you can talk about strict rules of due process. Thatís what Rí Lopiansky did in the Mishpacha article, which is why I can respect his opinion. But I havenít seen any evidence of compassion for the victims or protection for those in the future from your posts. Perhaps I am mistaken.
« Last Edit: January 04, 2022, 11:19:57 PM by S209 »

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Re: False allegations
« Reply #14 on: January 04, 2022, 09:11:24 PM »
וְכָל אֵלּוּ הַדִּינִין שֶׁכָּתַבְנוּ הוּא דַּוְקָא בְּאִישׁ, אֲשֶׁר מִנְהָגוֹ וְדַרְכּוֹ לְהִתְחָרֵט עַל חֲטָאָיו, (כט) אֲבָל אִם בָּחַנְתָּ אֶת דַּרְכּוֹ, כִּי אֵין פַּחַד אֱלֹהִים לְנֶגֶד עֵינָיו וְתָמִיד יִתְיַצֵּב עַל דֶּרֶךְ לֹא טוֹב, כְּמוֹ הפּוֹרֵק מֵעָלָיו עֹל מַלְכוּת שָׁמַיִם אוֹ שֶׁאֵינוֹ נִזְהָר מֵעְבֵרָה אַחת, אֲשֶׁר כָּל שַׁעַר עַמּוֹ יוֹדְעִים שֶׁהִיא עֲבֵרָה, דְּהיְנוּ בֵּין שֶׁאוֹתָה הָעֲבֵרָה, שֶׁהוּא רוֹצֶּה לְגַלּוֹת, עָשָׂה הַחוֹטֵא כַּמָּה פְּעָמִים בְּמֵזִיד אוֹ שֶׁעָבר בְּמֵזִיד כַּמָּה פְּעָמִים עֲבֵרָה אַחַת הַמְפֻרְסֶמֶת לַכֹּל שֶׁהִיא עֲבֵרָה, אִם כֵּן מוּכָח מִנֵּה שֶׁלֹּא מֵחֲמַת שֶׁגָּבַר יִצְּרוֹ עָלָיו עָבַר עַל דִּבְרֵי ה' כִּי אִם בִּשְׁרִירוּת לִבּוֹ הוּא הוֹלֵךְ, וְאֵין פַּחַד אֱלֹהִים לְנְגֶד עֵינָיו, לָכֵן מֻתָּר לְהַכְלִימוֹ (ל) וּלְסַפֵּר בִּגְנוּתוֹ בֵּין בְּפָנָיו וּבֵין שֶׁלֹּא בְּפָנָיו. וְאִם הוּא יַעֲשֶׂה מַעֲשֶׂה אוֹ יְדַבֵּר דָּבָר, וְיֵשׁ לְשָׁפְטוֹ לְצַּד הַזְּכוּת וּלְצַד הַחוֹב, צָּרִיךְ לְשָׁפְטוֹ לְצַּד הַחוֹב, אַחֲרֵי שֶׁנִּתְחַזֵּק לְרָשָׁע גָּמוּר בִּשְׁאָר עִנְיָנָיו, וְכֵן אָמְרוּ רַבּוֹתֵינוּ "לֹא תוֹנוּ אִישׁ אֶת עֲמִיתוֹ", עַם שֶׁאִתְּךָ בְּתוֹרָה וּבְמִצְוֹת, אַל תּוֹנֵהוּ בִּדְבָרִים, וַאֲשֶׁר לֹא שָׁת לִבּוֹ לִדְבַד ה', מֻתָּר לְהַכְלִימּוֹ בְּמַעֲלָלָיו וּלְהוֹדִיעַ תּוֹעֲבוֹתָיו וְלִשְׁפֹּךְ בּוּז עָלָיו, וְעוֹד אָמְרוּ: מְפַרְסְמִין אֶת הַחֲנֵפִים מִפְּנִי חִלּוּל ה', וְכָל שֶׁכֵּן (לא) אִם הוֹכִיחַ אוֹתוֹ בָּזֶה וְלֹא חָזַר, דְּמֻתָּר לְפַרְסְמוֹ וּלְגַלּוֹת עַל חֲטָאָיו בְּשַׁעַר בַּת רַבִּים וְלִשְׁפֹּךְ בּוּז עָלָיו, עַד שֶׁיַּחֲזֹר לְמוּטָב, וּכְמוֹ שֶׁכָּתַב הָרַמְבַּ"ם בְּסוֹף פֶּרֶקּ ו' מֵהִלְכוֹת דֵּעוֹת {הלכה ח'}, אַךְ יֵשׁ לִזָּהֵר שֶׁלֹּא לִשְׁכֹּחַ (לב) פְּרָטִים אֲחָדִים הַמִּצְטָרְכִים לָזֶה, וּכְתַבְתִּים בִּבְאֵר מַיִם חיִּים.

Chofetz Chaim 4:7

וְכָל זֶה, שֶׁדִּבַּרְנוּ, הוּא בִּסְתָם אִישׁ יִשְׂרָאֵל, אֲבָל אִם (י) נִתְחַזֵּק מִכְּבָר בְּלָאו הָכִי לְאָדָם רָשָׁע, מִפְּנֵי שֶׁנִּתְפַּרְסֵם עָלָיו כַּמָּה פְּעָמִים, שֶׁעָבַר בִּשְׁאָט נֶפֶשׁ עַל אִסוּרִין הַיְדוּעִין לְכָל יִשְׂרָאֵל, שֶׁהוּא אָסוּר כְּנֵאוּף וְכַיּוֹצֵּא בָּזֶה, עַל אִישׁ כָּזֶה מֻתָּר לְקַבֵּל לָשׁוֹן הָרָע.

7:5

וְעַתָּה נַתְחִיל לְבָאֵר בְּעֶזְרַת ה' דִּין קַבָּלַת לָשׁוֹן הָרָע מֵאִישׁ, שֶׁהוּא מְהֵימָן כְּבֵי תְּרֵי {כשני עדים}, אוֹ מִמֵּסִיחַ לְפִי תֻּמּוֹ, אוֹ אִם יֵשׁ לוֹ עַל הַסִפּוּר הַהוּא דְּבָרִים הַנִּכָּרִים שֶׁהוּא אֱמֶת, וְאַף שֶׁבְּרֹב הַדִּינִים הֵם שָׁוִין, אַף עַל פִּי כֵן חִלַּקְּתִּי אוֹתָם כָּל אֶחָד וְאֶחָד בִּסְעִיפִין בִּפְנִי עַצְּמָן, מִפְּנֵי שֶׁיֵּשׁ פְּרָטִים אֲחָדִים, שֶׁמִּשְׁתַּנְּה כָּל אֶחָד בְּדִינוֹ מֵחֲבֵרוֹ, וְגַם שֶׁלֹּא יִתְעַרְבְּבוּ עֵינִי הַקּוֹרֵא מִפְּנִי רֻבֵּי הָעֲנָפִים, שֶׁמִּתְפַּשְּׁטִים מִכָּל אֶחָד וְאֶחָד. וְזֶה הֵחֵלִי בְּעֶזְרַת החוֹנִן לְאָדָם דַּעַת.

7:7

וְאִם יֵשׁ עָלָיו (כב) דְּבָרִים הַנִּכָּרִים, שֶׁנִּרְאֶה עַל יְדֵי זֶה, שֶׁמַּה שֶּׁמְּסַפְּרִין עָלָיו הוּא אֱמֶת, דִּינָא הָכֵי {הדין כך}, אִם יֵשׁ בָּעִנְיָן הַזֶּה, אֲפִלּוּ אִם הַדָּבָר אֱמֶת, (כג) לְשָפְטוֹ לְצַּד זְכוּת, או בְּעִנְיְנִי שְלִילַת הַמַּעֲלות, או בְּכָל שְאָר הַפְּרָטִים, הַמְבֹאָרִים לְעֵיל בְּסָעִיף ז', לֹא שַׁיָּךְ בָּזֶה דְּבָרִים הַנִּכָּרִים, דְּוַדַּאי אָנוּ מְחֻיָּבִין לְדוּנוֹ לְכַף זְכוּת (כד) כֵּיוָן שֶׁהוּא אִישׁ בֵּינוֹנִי כְּדֵי שֶׁלֹּא יִתְבַּזֶּה עַל יְדֵי זֶה בְּעֵינֵינוּ וְכַנַּ"ל, אֲבָל אִם הוּא דָּבָר אֲשֶׁר אֵין לִמְצֹא צַּד זְכוּת עַל הָעוֹשְׁקוֹ, (כה) מֻתָּר לְהאֲמִין וּלְקַבֵּל.

7:10

וְלִפְעָמִים (לב) נִתָּן רְשׁוּת לְבֵית דִּין מִפְּנֵי צֹרֶךְ שָׁעָה, כְּגוֹן, שֶׁאֶחָד בָּא לִצְעֹק לִפְנֵיהֶם עַל דְּבַר גְּנֵבָה שֶׁנִּגְנַב מִמֶּנּוּ, וְהוּא מְשַׁעֵר בְּוַדַּאי בִּדְבָרִים הַנִּכָּרִים מַמָּשׁ, שֶׁפְּלוֹנִי גָּנַב מִמֶּנּוּ הַחֵפֶץ, וְגַם הַבֵּית דִּין רוֹאִין אֶת הַדְּבָרִים הַנִּכָּרִים, אוֹ שֶׁעֵדִים הֵעִידוּ לִפְנֵיהֶם עַל הַדְּבָרִים הַנִּכָּרִים, נִתָּן לָהֶם רְשׁוּת לְהַכּוֹתוֹ, כְּדֵי שֶׁיּוֹדֶה. אֲבָל לְיָחִיד, אוֹ אֲפִלּוּ לְבֵית דִּין, רַק שֶׁלֹּא נִתְבָּרֵר לָהֶם הַדְּבָרִים הַנִּכָּרִים, כִּי אִם עַל יְדֵי הַתּוֹבֵעַ, לֹא נִתָּן רְשׁוּת הַזֶּה.

7:13

וְכָל זֶה הָאִסוּר שֶׁל לָשׁוֹן הָרָע הוּא דַּוְקָא עַל אִישׁ, שֶׁעַל פִּי דִּין תּוֹרָה הוּא עֲדַיִן בִּכְלַל "עֲמִיתֶךָ" דְּהַיְנוּ עַם שֶׁאִתְּךָ בַּתּוֹרָה וּבְמִצְּוֹת, אֲבָל אוֹתָן הָאֲנָשִׁים, שֶׁמַּכִּירָם, שֶׁיֵּשׁ בָּהֶם אֶפִּיקוֹרְסוּת, (ח) מִצְּוָה לְגַנּוֹתָם וּלְבַזּוֹתָם, בֵּין בִּפְנֵיהֶם וּבֵין שֶׁלֹּא בִּפְנֵיהֶם, בְּכָל מַה שֶּׁהוּא רוֹאֶה עֲלֵיהֶם, (ט) אוֹ שֶׁשּׁוֹמֵעַ עֲלֵיהֶם, דִּכְתִיב: "לֹא תוֹנוּ אִישׁ אֶת עֲמִיתוֹ", וְ"לֹא תֵלֵךְ רָכִיל בְּעַמֶּיךָ", וְהֵם אֵינָם בִּכְלָל זֶה, שֶׁאֵינָם עוֹשִׂים מַעֲשֵׂה עַמְּךָ, וְנֶאֱמַר {תהלים קל"ט כ"א}: "הֲלוֹא מְשַׂנְאֶיךָ ה' (י) אֶשְׂנָא וּבִתְקוֹמְמֶיךָ אֶתְקוֹטָט" וְכוּ', וְאֶפִּיקוֹרֵס (יא) נִקְרָא הַכּוֹפֵר בַּתּוֹרָה וּבַנְּבוּאָה מִיִּשְׂרָאֵל, בֵּין בַּתּוֹרָה שֶׁבִּכְתָב וּבֵין בַּתּוֹרָה שֶׁבְּעַל פֶּה, וַאֲפִלּוּ הוּא אוֹמֵר, כָּל הַתּוֹרָה מִן הַשָּׁמַיִם, חוּץ מִפָּסוּק אֶחָד אוֹ קַל וָחֹמֶר אֶחָד אוֹ גְּזֵרָה שָׁוָה אֶחָת אוֹ דִּקְדּוּק אֶחָד, גַּם הוּא בַּכְּלָל הַזֶּה.

8:5

וְדַוְקָא אִם שָׁמַע מֵהֶם בְּעַצְמוֹ דִּבְרֵי אֶפִּיקוֹרְסוּת, אֲבָל אִם אֲחֵרִים אָמְרוּ לוֹ, אָסוּר לִסְמֹךְ עַל זֶה לְגַנּוֹתָם, בֵּין בִּפְנֵיהֶם וּבֵין שֶׁלֹּא בִּפְנֵיהֶם, וְגַם אֵין לוֹ לְהַחְלִיט דָּבָר זֶה בַּלֵּב כְּדִין אִסוּר קַבָּלַת לָשׁוֹן הָרָע, וְכַנַּ"ל בִּכְלָל ו', רַק צָרִיךְ לוֹ לְעֵת עַתָּה לָחוּשׁ לְעַצְמוֹ (יב) וְגַם לְהַזְהִיר לַאֲחֵרִים בַּסֵתֶר, שֶׁלֹּא יִתְחַבְּרוּ לְעֵת עַתָּה עִמָּהֶם, עַד שֶׁיִּתְבָּרֵר הַדָּבָר. וְכָל זֶה דַּוְקָא בִּשְׁמִיעָה בְּעָלְמָא, אֲבָל אִם (יג) מֻחְזָקִּין בָּעִיר לְאֶפִּיקוֹרְסִים, דִּינוֹ כְּאִלּוּ מַכִּירָם בְּעַצְּמוֹ.

8:6

וְדַע עוֹד, דְּאִם מֻחְזָק בָּעִיר לְרָשָׁע (יד) מִפְּנֵי שְׁאָר עִנְיְנֵי עֲבֵרוֹת, שֶׁמֻּתָּר עֲבוּרָם לְגַנּוֹתוֹ, (טו) גַּם כֵּן דִּינָא הָכֵי {כך}, (ועַיּן בִּבְאֵר מַיִם חיִּים הפּרָטִים, שֶׁצָּרִיךְ לָזִה), וְאֵיזֶהוּ מֻחְזָק? כָּל שֶׁהֻסְכַּם בִּפְנִי אַנְשֵׁי הָעִיר לְרָשָׁע, עַד שֶׁלֹּא יִפּל לָהֶם בּוֹ סָפֵק (מֵחֲמַת שְׁמוּעוֹת הָרָעוֹת, שֶׁיּוֹצְאוֹת עָלָיו תָּמִיד מֵעִנְיְנִי נֵאוּף וְכַיּוֹצֵא בָּזֶה, דְּבָרִים שֶׁנִּתְפַּשֵּׁט יְדִיעַת אִסוּרָן בְּכָל יִשְׂרָאֵל), אֲבָל אִם יָצָא עָלָיו קוֹל בְּעָלְמָא בִּלְבַד, אָסוּר לִסְמֹךְ עַל זֶה לְגַנּוֹתוֹ, חַס וְשָׁלוֹם, וַאֲפִלּוּ לְהַחְלִיט בַּלֵּב אָסוּר, וּכְמוֹ שֶׁבֵּאַרְנוּ לְעֵיל בִּכְלָל ז'. (וְאַף שֶׁיָּרֵאתִי מְאֹד לְהַעְתִּיק דִּין הַזֶּה מִפְּנִי בַּעֲלֵי הַלָּשׁוֹן, שֶׁכְּשֶׁיִּשְׁמְעוּ עַל אֶחָד שֶׁמֶץ דְּבַר מַה, תֵּכֶף יַחְזִיקוּ אֶת הָאִישׁ הַהוּא לְמֻחְזָק בְּרֶשַׁע וִיגַנּוּ אוֹתוֹ וְיִתְלוּ אֶת הַהֶתֵּר בַּסֵפֶר הַזֶּה, עִם כָּל זֶה לֹא הִשְׁמַטְתִּיו, כְּמַאֲמָרָם זַ"ל בְּבָבָא בַּתְרָא {דף פ"ט} עַל רַבָּן יוֹחָנָן בֶּן זַכַּאי, אֲמָרָה וּמֵהַאי קָרָא אֲמָרָה, {הושע י"ד י'}: "כִּי יְשָׁרִים דַּרְכֵי ה' וְצַּדִּיקִים יֵלְכוּ בָם וּפוֹשְׁעִים יִכָּשְׁלוּ בָם").

8:7

« Last Edit: January 04, 2022, 09:25:20 PM by S209 »

Offline VacationLover

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Re: False allegations
« Reply #15 on: January 04, 2022, 09:53:47 PM »
I paraphrased your quote.

I get it. I also know of a case where itís pretty evident the man was falsely accused. It stinks, and should be avoided at all costs. The difference is, Iím also all too familiar with cases of severe abuse. And that stinks more.

I know a case where an entire family is currently being completely torn apart because one child in the family was repeatedly abused by a relative. For various reasons they have not come forward with the name, although those close to them know exactly who it is. Do you know what the family is going through? ETA: <removed potentially identifying information>

This is the day to day life in the home of *one* victim of *one* abuser. Who you never heard of and likely will never hear of. There are thousands like him roaming the streets. Being ďinvestigatedĒ. Dragging feet. Afraid of backlash. The family seems mostly regular to outsiders. The abuser is still a pretty respectable guy in his community, where presumably others have no idea.

More victims having their lives for all intents and purposes snuffed out because we dragged our feet for 25 years ďinvestigatingĒ. Abusers roaming free, preying on thousands of vulnerable children for lack of conclusive evidence to lock them up or even warn the public. Thatís the flip side of the scenario you paint. And this scenario is MUCH more commonplace.

Itís great to be extra machmir on loshon hora. But donít you realize you are risking the issur of lo saamod at the same time? What do you say to that?

I donít know the answers, and Iíve said so repeatedly. Whatís more important? I donít know. But your blasť and completely dismissive attitude toward the other side of the equation is what really bothers me. You claim to know how to go about this: how did you reach that conclusion? The more onerous the process the better? Why do you think so?

Do you truly understand the pain and devastation even *one* incidence of abuse can leave on a victim? Do you get what you are risking? Why does protecting the potentially (but unlikely to be) innocent abuser take precedence to protecting the potentially (and very likely) future victims?

Would you have the same attitude towards a murder suspect? And with a murder conviction  there is usually not more than a body and a weapon. Here you have a live victim making a claim!

Speak to a professional in the field. Spend a few minutes listening to victims of abuse talk about their lives. Develop some empathy towards the real victims in the cw story. Then you can talk about strict rules of due process. Thatís what Rí Lopiansky did in the Mishpacha article, which is why I can respect his opinion. But I havenít seen any evidence of compassion for the victims or protection for those in the future from your posts. Perhaps I am mistaken.
I think we both agree that there is abuse. We both agree that there are sometimes false accusations.
We both agree that there should be protocols for easier and thorough reporting.

Online S209

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Re: False allegations
« Reply #16 on: January 04, 2022, 10:13:12 PM »
I think we both agree that there is abuse. We both agree that there are sometimes false accusations.
We both agree that there should be protocols for easier and thorough reporting.
How bad do you feel abuse is relative to false allegations?

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Re: False allegations
« Reply #17 on: January 04, 2022, 10:20:26 PM »
How bad do you feel abuse is relative to false allegations?
Conservatively I would say 100 to 1.

If you are asking how many are abused to how many are falsely accused that would be over 1000 to 1.
You're so far up Trump's a** you can see Giuliani's feet.  HT Baruch

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Re: False allegations
« Reply #18 on: January 04, 2022, 10:42:11 PM »
How bad do you feel abuse is relative to false allegations?

But false allegations is also a type of abuse. Families where all their children are removed because of false allegations, and mother spends her life crying morning to night mourning the loss of her children. And the accuser goes scot-free.  It is a different type of abuse. It's psychological torture.

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Re: False allegations
« Reply #19 on: January 04, 2022, 10:44:43 PM »
But false allegations is also a type of abuse. Families where all their children are removed because of false allegations, and mother spends her life crying morning to night mourning the loss of her children. And the accuser goes scot-free.  It is a different type of abuse.
Yes it is abuse.
As you pointed out the families also suffer. This is also true of those who are abused.
You're so far up Trump's a** you can see Giuliani's feet.  HT Baruch