Author Topic: False allegations  (Read 15374 times)

Offline AsherO

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Re: False allegations
« Reply #140 on: January 13, 2022, 12:12:08 PM »
This ties into what I mentioned earlier about the best way of dealing with these people. Part of the issue is that because many are so evil it's a massive stigma to have on one's head. All the more so in communities where anything sexual is taboo. There is discussion whether there should be ways that dont harm anyone directly for them to use or that makes the problem bigger. If they should be medically treated or some other kind of "conversion" or such.

Supporting such people in a way that’s dignified but doesn’t enable them certainly works towards making the community safer.
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Offline JlmBoi

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Re: False allegations
« Reply #141 on: January 13, 2022, 12:12:54 PM »


In Walders case although they clearly were oblivious to the various red flags over the years, but I'm sure he wouldn't continue as a therapist after being tried, all evidence made publicly, and certainly not after serving some years in prison.

His employers knew (at least) about the adultery. That's not oblivious to red flags.
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Offline EliJelly

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Re: False allegations
« Reply #142 on: January 13, 2022, 12:14:17 PM »
What part of how the story went down indicates that any of this would have happened?

I'm no fan of the prison system in this country for numerous reasons, and won't address what I feel about 100-year sentences in general. But without him being locked up by the government, there is no reason to think he would have stopped abusing people. He didn't only abuse "patients". He wasn't a therapist, he was a manipulator. "The community" that defended him has never backtracked or apologized to that victim or any other victims. There's more than enough evidence that a person with his narcissism would be the harmless שברי כלי you describe.
I'm not talking if he would be exonerated immediately, I'm talking of this particular case, after being tried and shamed publicly, more so after serving some time in prison. Saying that we should strive for a hundred years in prison is ridiculous.

Offline AsherO

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Re: False allegations
« Reply #143 on: January 13, 2022, 12:17:13 PM »
There's more than enough evidence that a person with his narcissism wouldn’t be the harmless שברי כלי you describe.

?
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Offline Yehuda57

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Re: False allegations
« Reply #144 on: January 13, 2022, 12:20:25 PM »
I'm not talking if he would be exonerated immediately, I'm talking of this particular case, after being tried an shamed publicly, more so after serving some time in prison. Saying that we should strive for a hundred years in prison is ridiculous.

You didn't refute anything I said.

Hypothetically, if he was paroled tomorrow, do you think he would go home quietly or would there be a massive seudas hodaah and celebration?

?

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Offline JlmBoi

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Re: False allegations
« Reply #145 on: January 13, 2022, 12:21:24 PM »
I'm not talking if he would be exonerated immediately, I'm talking of this particular case, after being tried and shamed publicly, more so after serving some time in prison. Saying that we should strive for a hundred years in prison is ridiculous.
If he was somehow pardoned now, satmar would parade him in the streets and make a huge celebration. I would be relatively certain he would be back in a position to abuse. Sounds like you underestimate the amounts of evil that exist in some leadership. There's someone well known in BP who has been recently charged with the rape of a minor. When it happened I remember an outpouring of support for him. When everyone is on board with the right agenda then let's discuss if to release them at 90. Until then save your uneasiness for these pigs and those who support them.
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Offline JlmBoi

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Re: False allegations
« Reply #146 on: January 13, 2022, 12:23:26 PM »
In many old school communities, people look at these things like normal sexual offences. Like this eishes ish or sleeping with a non jew. Basically, if your worth enough to the moisdos, it will be overlooked.
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Offline EliJelly

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Re: False allegations
« Reply #147 on: January 13, 2022, 12:29:54 PM »
You didn't refute anything I said.

Hypothetically, if he was paroled tomorrow, do you think he would go home quietly or would there be a massive seudas hodaah and celebration?

Positively the latter, but he wouldn't be given any cases nevertheless, a decision made by level headed people not young hotheads celebrating a victory over the secular media etc. Again, draw the line wherever you feel safe that he no longer poses a threat. We are not striving to see ANY yid in prison if he's not a danger to society and I took issue with that particular line.

Offline JoeyShmoe

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Re: False allegations
« Reply #148 on: January 13, 2022, 12:35:21 PM »
1. Prison sentences are justice, they give closure to victims. AYLOR if that’s a justification, I’m not clear myself what to the Torah’s view is on this (in general, for any crime) as the Torah doesn’t really use prison, it would typically be malkos or misas BD.
CMIIW but isn't the Halacha that one goes to prison until sentencing (this is out of memory, so I might totally wrong)
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Offline AsherO

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Re: False allegations
« Reply #149 on: January 13, 2022, 12:36:26 PM »
CMIIW but isn't the Halacha that one goes to prison until sentencing (this is out of memory, so I might totally wrong)

even if true, that isn’t what we’re talking about here. I said not really because there are some things in Torah you might call prison, but it’s nothing like Western criminal justice systems today.
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Offline Yehuda57

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Re: False allegations
« Reply #150 on: January 13, 2022, 12:53:13 PM »
but he wouldn't be given any cases nevertheless,
a decision made by level headed people not young hotheads
 draw the line wherever you feel safe that he no longer poses a threat.

Again, there is absolutely nothing that has been said or done that indicates any of what you say will be done. I'm loathe to say anyone should sit and vegetate for 100 years, but in the context of this thread and case, we don't currently have any other way of preventing him from abusing anyone.

Offline JlmBoi

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Re: False allegations
« Reply #151 on: January 13, 2022, 12:53:58 PM »


Positively the latter, but he wouldn't be given any cases nevertheless, a decision made by level headed people not young hotheads celebrating a victory over the secular media etc
Again, I think you are misreading the situation. What changes in the leaderships mind now that he is convicted by a court?
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Re: False allegations
« Reply #152 on: January 13, 2022, 12:55:38 PM »
1. Prison sentences are justice, they give closure to victims. AYLOR if that’s a justification, I’m not clear myself what to the Torah’s view is on this (in general, for any crime) as the Torah doesn’t really use prison, it would typically be malkos or misas BD.
There was a parallel justice system administered by the king.
Feelings don't care about your facts

Offline gozalim

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Re: False allegations
« Reply #153 on: January 13, 2022, 01:57:44 PM »
There was a parallel justice system administered by the king.
+1
that one was primarily the 'deterrent' value, and could include anything, including capital punishment bizman hazeh IINM

Offline AsherO

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Re: False allegations
« Reply #154 on: January 13, 2022, 02:03:31 PM »
There was a parallel justice system administered by the king.

Did it include post-conviction prison sentences? If yes, please share sources for that, I’d love to learn more.
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Offline AsherO

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Re: False allegations
« Reply #155 on: January 13, 2022, 02:05:44 PM »
+1
that one was primarily the 'deterrent' value, and could include anything, including capital punishment bizman hazeh IINM

Which kings administered this? Up until Bayis Rishon? Unless it was codified it would ostensibly be hard to figure out how to apply it today.
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Offline S209

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Re: False allegations
« Reply #156 on: January 13, 2022, 02:16:03 PM »
If a therapist is being stripped of all his roles, has no more young girls coming to his office, has served some time in prison, essentially a שברי כלי, why would you say that such a person getting 103 years in prison is something we are striving for?? We should leave it to G-d to take care of sinners.
Honestly, I meant that he was convicted and sentenced in court. I’m not sure exactly how I feel about the extended prison time.

HOWEVER, if he would have murdered that ten year old girl and at *least* nine others in serial fashion over decades similar to how he was abusing, how would your feelings about a long sentence change? What would you say to trying to reintegrate him as soon as it is “safe”? Should we nebach him and put him in “Murderers Anonymous”?  שברי כלי and all that?

I am asking seriously.
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Offline EliJelly

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Re: False allegations
« Reply #157 on: January 13, 2022, 02:34:00 PM »
Honestly, I meant that he was convicted and sentenced in court. I’m not sure exactly how I feel about the extended prison time.

HOWEVER, if he would have murdered that ten year old girl and at *least* nine others in serial fashion over decades similar to how he was abusing, how would your feelings about a long sentence change? What would you say to trying to reintegrate him as soon as it is “safe”? Should we nebach him and put him in “Murderers Anonymous”?  שברי כלי and all that?

I am asking seriously.
You're talking of 'feelings'? You probably have a point although honestly I would view him more evil had he been a serial murderer. But I'm saying that as yidden we do what the Torah says, so in case where a person isn't a rodef not only we aren't allowed to maser him to secular authorities, there would likely be a mitzva of pidyon shvuim to get him out, despite the amount of evil he has done.

Offline S209

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Re: False allegations
« Reply #158 on: January 13, 2022, 02:35:56 PM »
You're talking of 'feelings'? You probably have a point although honestly I would view him more evil had he been a serial murderer. But I'm saying that as yidden we do what the Torah says, so in case where a person isn't a rodef not only we aren't allowed to maser him to secular authorities, there would likely be a mitzva of pidyon shvuim to get him out, despite the amount of evil he has done.
Just pointing out that the “disturbed” feeling you posted about was grounded more in hergesh than Halacha which probably amplifies that you still feel a certain abhorrence, fear, and disgust towards murder that you (and most of us!) don’t feel towards abuse.

I don’t know what the true Torah hashkafa is. But I’m probably less disturbed about the sentence than you are. I view him as a sadistic monster.

What are your thoughts on Levi Aron’s life sentence? Are you disturbed by the excessive length? He only murdered one child, and is a complete broken man who has already spent more than half a decade behind bars.

Weberman destroyed countless innocent lives for his own self-gratification.
« Last Edit: January 13, 2022, 02:40:06 PM by S209 »
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Offline gozalim

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Re: False allegations
« Reply #159 on: January 13, 2022, 02:45:37 PM »
so in case where a person isn't a rodef
debatable