Author Topic: False allegations  (Read 5923 times)

Offline yelped

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Re: False allegations
« Reply #180 on: January 13, 2022, 07:06:28 PM »
My recollection is that the Rambam discusses it in hilchos melachim. I'll go ask a lubavitcher about that.
Reminds me of an article by a Conservative Rabbi 40 years ago lauding the Lubavitcher Rebbe, among the stuff he wrote was, how he made the Rambam household knowledge among Lubavitch.

ETA:

« Last Edit: January 13, 2022, 07:11:28 PM by yelped »

Offline skyguy918

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Re: False allegations
« Reply #181 on: January 13, 2022, 07:22:42 PM »
My recollection is that the Rambam discusses it in hilchos melachim. I'll go ask a lubavitcher about that.
Though not the same as prison, there's also כיפה.
https://www.sefaria.org/Mishneh_Torah%2C_The_Sanhedrin_and_the_Penalties_within_their_Jurisdiction.18?lang=bi

Offline gozalim

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Re: False allegations
« Reply #182 on: January 13, 2022, 09:14:49 PM »
My recollection is that the Rambam discusses it in hilchos melachim. I'll go ask a lubavitcher about that.
רמב"ם הלכות סנהדרין פרק כד
Start from הלכה ד, with prison at about הלכה ט
« Last Edit: January 13, 2022, 09:19:02 PM by gozalim »

Offline AsherO

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Re: False allegations
« Reply #183 on: January 13, 2022, 09:54:59 PM »
רמב"ם הלכות סנהדרין פרק כד
Start from הלכה ד, with prison at about הלכה ט

Thanks for sharing. But this doesnít sound like a system, itís more like one of a myriad of options at the disposal of a Dayan. Was there ever a time in Jewish history when this was practiced in any sort of regular basis?

Offline gozalim

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Re: False allegations
« Reply #184 on: January 13, 2022, 10:24:45 PM »
Thanks for sharing. But this doesnít sound like a system, itís more like one of a myriad of options at the disposal of a Dayan. Was there ever a time in Jewish history when this was practiced in any sort of regular basis?
If I understand correctly this is parallel but separate to the king's right [citation needed] to administer as necessary.

IOW torah's punishments are 'true' justice (body and soul), both others are, by definition, for the purpose of keeping society functioning.
and, almost by definition, if we were ruled by a local dayan, not a king, refers to golus times where we probably didn't have the authority and autonomy for this kind of thing on a consistent basis.

that said, there are tshuvos, and there probably were times. see for example tshuvos rivash tshuva 251

Online aygart

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Re: False allegations
« Reply #185 on: January 13, 2022, 10:46:15 PM »
רמב"ם הלכות סנהדרין פרק כד
Start from הלכה ד, with prison at about הלכה ט
Hil melochim 3:10 is about murders without halachic proof.
Feelings don't care about your facts

Offline gozalim

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Re: False allegations
« Reply #186 on: January 13, 2022, 11:14:14 PM »
looked up now, seems whaever articles I took this
IOW torah's punishments are 'true' justice (body and soul), both others are, by definition, for the purpose of keeping society functioning.
and, almost by definition, if we were ruled by a local dayan, not a king, refers to golus times where we probably didn't have the authority and autonomy for this kind of thing on a consistent basis.
from, where taking from
Derashos HaRan 11

Offline yitzgar

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Re: False allegations
« Reply #187 on: January 13, 2022, 11:25:21 PM »
It would shock me if chazal or the melech or whoever was in power in those days didn't take care of people who were a threat to society in those days.

Online aygart

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Re: False allegations
« Reply #188 on: January 13, 2022, 11:30:24 PM »
It would shock me if chazal or the melech or whoever was in power in those days didn't take care of people who were a threat to society in those days.
Of course they did. If it was an eishes ish he was chayav missah if it was a niddah he got malkos for the kareis. If it wasn't included then they would do as they saw fit.
Feelings don't care about your facts

Offline VacationLover

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Re: False allegations
« Reply #189 on: January 13, 2022, 11:34:34 PM »
Of course they did. If it was an eishes ish he was chayav missah if it was a niddah he got malkos for the kareis. If it wasn't included then they would do as they saw fit.
How about for touchy people, who haven't been accused of more serious allegations? Also is התראה required for what you mentioned? (We're going off topic already but you got me wondering)

Offline EliJelly

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Re: False allegations
« Reply #190 on: January 13, 2022, 11:38:44 PM »
Of course they did. If it was an eishes ish he was chayav missah if it was a niddah he got malkos for the kareis. If it wasn't included then they would do as they saw fit.
Reb Elchonon writes about that extensively how in previous generations they had a lot of power to punish. What struck me was a Tshuvas H'Rush he quotes where the Rush ordered to cut off the nose of a zonah who was repeatedly being mezanah with men. No more nose - shop closed.

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Re: False allegations
« Reply #191 on: January 13, 2022, 11:40:16 PM »
How about for touchy people, who haven't been accused of more serious allegations? Also is התראה required for what you mentioned? (We're going off topic already but you got me wondering)
There is a case where a married couple was punished for living together under a fig tree
Feelings don't care about your facts

Offline yitzgar

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Re: False allegations
« Reply #192 on: January 13, 2022, 11:41:56 PM »
Reb Elchonon writes about that extensively how in previous generations they had a lot of power to punish. What struck me was a Tshuvas H'Rush he quotes where the Rush ordered to cut off the nose of a zonah who was repeatedly being mezanah with men. No more nose - shop closed.
Why the nose?

Offline EliJelly

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Re: False allegations
« Reply #193 on: January 13, 2022, 11:43:57 PM »
Why the nose?
I assume because one can easily live without but no longer attractive

Offline gozalim

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Re: False allegations
« Reply #194 on: January 14, 2022, 12:59:07 AM »