Author Topic: False allegations  (Read 6123 times)

Offline S209

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Re: False allegations
« Reply #20 on: January 04, 2022, 11:12:52 PM »
But false allegations is also a type of abuse. Families where all their children are removed because of false allegations, and mother spends her life crying morning to night mourning the loss of her children. And the accuser goes scot-free.  It is a different type of abuse. It's psychological torture.
True. False allegations can have a terrible effect on someone and their family, not unlike abuse. Which is worse? Is it close? Is one far worse than the other? Which should we be more careful about? Which is more likely to occur? Which is more preventable, more treatable, more likely to reoccur?

These are all questions I donít necessarily have the answer to. But if you do, Iíd like to hear them. And if you donít, itís best you donít propose solutions that favor one of them too heavily for fear of bias clouding your judgement.

Offline VacationLover

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Re: False allegations
« Reply #21 on: January 04, 2022, 11:23:43 PM »
How bad do you feel abuse is relative to false allegations?
I don't know. But I would guess that 10-20% abuse allegations are flatly made up. And another 30% is extremely exaggerated or was with consent at time of occurrence.

I don't want to go in circles again... I fully agree that each and every claim should be thoroughly investigated. The reason we are having this thread is because by the CW case, the allegations were kept low and only 1 BD investigated it. For such a high profile case, more investigating is required, and in theory, it should have started years ago. Therefore, since false allegations are a fact in some cases, we need to make sure that this isn't the case here. If it was already verified by another BD then perfect. @bluestrings, I am looking forward to read the Ami this week, maybe it'll clear things up.

Offline CountValentine

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Re: False allegations
« Reply #22 on: January 04, 2022, 11:24:37 PM »
If you are going to talk about false allegations, you really need to state the circumstance.
Custody fight, single accuser, multiple accusers and many others will be all different.
I would not be surprised to see in custody fights it to be 30%+.
You're so far up Trump's a** you can see Giuliani's feet.  HT Baruch

Offline CountValentine

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Re: False allegations
« Reply #23 on: January 04, 2022, 11:29:51 PM »
Therefore, since false allegations are a fact in some cases, we need to make sure that this isn't the case here.
In this case it is multiple accusers. Those cases are extremely rare for false accusations.
The other thing about this case is the threat to children by this accused is no longer there. The focus should be on helping the victims and stopping it from happening to other children.
You're so far up Trump's a** you can see Giuliani's feet.  HT Baruch

Offline VacationLover

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Re: False allegations
« Reply #24 on: January 04, 2022, 11:36:40 PM »
In this case it is multiple accusers. Those cases are extremely rare for false accusations.
The other thing about this case is the threat to children by this accused is no longer there. The focus should be on helping the victims and stopping it from happening to other children.
If its this 1 BD, I don't care how many accusers "he says" he has.

Regarding helping victims, certainly, the awareness is loud and clear.

Offline S209

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Re: False allegations
« Reply #25 on: January 04, 2022, 11:38:06 PM »
I don't know. But I would guess that 10-20% abuse allegations are flatly made up. And another 30% is extremely exaggerated or was with consent at time of occurrence.
So you believe that 50% of abuse allegations are either false or extremely exaggerated. Got it. Have you tried to verify these numbers at all or are you just making them up out of thin air?

To the question I meant originally, which is *worse* as in which affects the person/family more?

And finally. With all of the information factored in. Why do you feel itís better to err on the side of protecting the abuser vs. protecting more innocent children being abused?

Offline aygart

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Re: False allegations
« Reply #26 on: January 04, 2022, 11:39:26 PM »
If its this 1 BD, I don't care how many accusers "he says" he has.

Regarding helping victims, certainly, the awareness is loud and clear.
What is the advantage of multiple investigative bodies?
Feelings don't care about your facts

Offline S209

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Re: False allegations
« Reply #27 on: January 04, 2022, 11:40:23 PM »
If its this 1 BD, I don't care how many accusers "he says" he has.
Why? Have you found anyone with any intimate knowledge of the case who denies it to be true (except for the actual narcissist who killed himself, as denial is the case of nearly all abusers)? Is there anything you have found to be suspicious? Or is this your generic bias towards abusers kicking in, because of your closeness to a case?

Offline VacationLover

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Re: False allegations
« Reply #28 on: January 04, 2022, 11:51:14 PM »
What is the advantage of multiple investigative bodies?
ע"פ שני עידים
For such a high profile case. You are basically trusting ONE (controversial) BD. But let me read the Ami's interview with him and then see if I change my stance
« Last Edit: January 04, 2022, 11:55:39 PM by VacationLover »

Offline VacationLover

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Re: False allegations
« Reply #29 on: January 04, 2022, 11:53:26 PM »
Why? Have you found anyone with any intimate knowledge of the case who denies it to be true (except for the actual narcissist who killed himself, as denial is the case of nearly all abusers)? Is there anything you have found to be suspicious? Or is this your generic bias towards abusers kicking in, because of your closeness to a case?
Am I obligated to trust ONE BD? I did not find anything, I feel like it's missing clarity, and knowing first hand how easy it is to bury someone, I am not convinced to believe this ONE BD

I can find you multiple BD that each of you wouldn't trust.
« Last Edit: January 04, 2022, 11:56:36 PM by VacationLover »

Offline aygart

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Re: False allegations
« Reply #30 on: January 04, 2022, 11:56:59 PM »
ע"פ שני עידים
For such a high profile case. You are basically trusting ONE (controversial) BD. But let me read the Ami's interview with him and then see if I change my stance
You are making your own standards based on nothing but your feelings.
Feelings don't care about your facts

Offline aygart

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Re: False allegations
« Reply #31 on: January 04, 2022, 11:57:47 PM »
Am I obligated to trust ONE BD? I did not find anything, I feel like it's missing clarity, and knowing first hand how easy it is to bury someone, I am not convinced to believe this ONE BD

I can find you multiple BD that each of you wouldn't trust.
Don't trust anyone but that is on you and nobody needs to indulge your feelings.
Feelings don't care about your facts

Offline S209

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Re: False allegations
« Reply #32 on: January 05, 2022, 12:06:31 AM »
Am I obligated to trust ONE BD? I did not find anything, I feel like it's missing clarity, and knowing first hand how easy it is to bury someone, I am not convinced to believe this ONE BD

I can find you multiple BD that each of you wouldn't trust.
Ok.. do you trust Esti Hamilton who spoke of 6 victims the head of Magen LeKehillot is working with? Do you trust Aron Rabinowitz who vetted 15 cases? Do you trust Dovi Weinroth who sat down with Rabinowitz and verified the evidence?

Do you trust Shifra Horowitz who nebach took her own life?

Youíre grasping at straws and itís plainly obvious.

Offline gozalim

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Re: False allegations
« Reply #33 on: January 05, 2022, 04:12:38 AM »
Am I obligated to trust ONE BD? I did not find anything, I feel like it's missing clarity, and knowing first hand how easy it is to bury someone, I am not convinced to believe this ONE BD

I can find you multiple BD that each of you wouldn't trust.
ain't no one here gonna convince you out of that....

Offline VacationLover

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Re: False allegations
« Reply #34 on: January 05, 2022, 08:20:48 AM »
Ok.. do you trust Esti Hamilton who spoke of 6 victims the head of Magen LeKehillot is working with? Do you trust Aron Rabinowitz who vetted 15 cases? Do you trust Dovi Weinroth who sat down with Rabinowitz and verified the evidence?

Do you trust Shifra Horowitz who nebach took her own life?

Youíre grasping at straws and itís plainly obvious.
I am no longer following closely. I only heard about Shifra Meir takingher life. Are you saying that third parties outside of the 1 BD confirmed some allegations?

If so I was not aware of it, and as I wrote before
If it was already verified by another BD then perfect.

Offline VacationLover

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Re: False allegations
« Reply #35 on: January 05, 2022, 08:22:44 AM »
You are making your own standards based on nothing but your feelings.
logic and feelings. And so do almost all human beings.

Offline aygart

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Re: False allegations
« Reply #36 on: January 05, 2022, 08:27:34 AM »
logic and feelings. And so do almost all human beings.
Maybe you can do that for yourself but your vague feelings cannot be a community standard.
Feelings don't care about your facts

Offline VacationLover

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Re: False allegations
« Reply #37 on: January 05, 2022, 08:57:20 AM »
Maybe you can do that for yourself but your vague feelings cannot be a community standard.
So going forward, how can we assure that a corrupt BD, or a biased BD can't announce allegations independently?

And how can we avoid this?⬇️
This makes it important for there to be a trustworthy investigative infrastructure to review such accusations instead of it remaining the domain of those looking to undermine Yiddishkeit.

As I said before

I think the 5 steps recommended by the Mishpacha is a good starting point. https://mishpacha.com/for-this-we-weep/

Offline iwlw2

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Re: False allegations
« Reply #38 on: January 05, 2022, 08:59:39 AM »
I don't know. But I would guess that 10-20% abuse allegations are flatly made up. And another 30% is extremely exaggerated or was with consent at time of occurrence.

This is so egregious I can't just let it go. From the way you say you don't know and you would guess, it seems apparent that you are not personally involved in such matters nor are you in touch with people that are. Do you know that professionals who are actually dealing with these things on a constant basis (therapists, support organizations etc.) say that the number of false allegations (especially when it comes to children) are practically negligible? That in the rare case when there is a false allegation it is usually almost immediately apparent? In reality and fact (which don't care about your feelings or guesses for that matter) exponentially more people are having their lives ruined by abusers and those that enable them (including by spreading the pernicious belief that allegations are made up) than the less than a handful who were accused falsely and had the accusations go anywhere. I'm sorry to say but this attitude is at the root of much of the difficulties in dealing with this issue in our community. And yes, I unfortunately do have some first-hand knowledge and have spoken to numerous professionals in the field.

Online Yehuda57

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Re: False allegations
« Reply #39 on: January 05, 2022, 09:08:04 AM »
I am no longer following closely. I only heard about Shifra Meir takingher life. Are you saying that third parties outside of the 1 BD confirmed some allegations?

If so I was not aware of it, and as I wrote before

Please don't hock about "1 BD", it either shows you aren't paying any attention at all, in which case don't comment, or that you're wilfully lying.

That one Beis Din came after a media outlet vetted 15 cases of abuse and only reported a few who were willing to have their stories printed.
It came after years of shmuos, including police reports from 5 years ago.
It came after numerous batei Din and rabonim banned his books over the years.
It came after decades of credible rumors which he and his people did a good job of scrubbing, but clearly enough people knew.

And numerous rabonim have said that "one BD" is to be trusted and believed.
CW's close friend and lawyer who was maspid him said they are to be believed.
ועוד.
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