Author Topic: False allegations  (Read 6118 times)

Offline Yehuda57

  • Dansdeals Presidential Platinum Elite
  • ********
  • Join Date: Jan 2014
  • Posts: 3295
  • Total likes: 8192
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 6
    • View Profile
    • Squilled
  • Location: Brooklyn
  • Programs: Official Dansdeals salad correspondent
Re: False allegations
« Reply #60 on: January 05, 2022, 11:46:17 AM »
You are right. So it doesn't have to be intentional, but publishers can still often get away with it when the subject is famous.

Again, the US has far more leeway for media than most countries, and even in the US a media outlet couldn't get away with posting such unfounded allegations
Quote from: ExGingi
Yehuda57 needs to spew a certain amount of sarcasm in order to survive through the day.

Offline AsherO

  • Global Moderator
  • Dansdeals Lifetime 20K Presidential Platinum Elite
  • **********
  • Join Date: May 2008
  • Posts: 27320
  • Total likes: 4200
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 77
    • View Profile
  • Location: NYC
Re: False allegations
« Reply #61 on: January 05, 2022, 12:13:52 PM »
The first is to make a standard and keep to it. Not some vague or depends on who I decide to trust that minute

We don’t have a unified standard for most things when it comes to the range of traditional Orthodox Rabonnim.

Hopefully there’s a lowest-common-denominator that’s met every time this comes up, that has a healthy balance between believing/being sensitive to the accuser(s) and mitigating false rumors about people.

A good starting point (also idealistic) would be Rabbis who don’t have the sufficient experience/aptitude referring cases elsewhere, but that’s true in all areas and is unfortunately not how things are handled.

Offline S209

  • Dansdeals Lifetime Presidential Platinum Elite
  • *********
  • Join Date: Jun 2016
  • Posts: 6224
  • Total likes: 2416
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 0
  • Gender: Male
    • View Profile
    • Gowns By Shevy
  • Location: Lakewood
  • Programs: Marriott Gold, SPG Gold, Ritz Carlton Gold, *G, Hyatt Explorist, Hertz PC, National EE, Rock Royalty Wild Card, Wyndham Diamond, MLife Gold, Total Rewards Diamond, Hilton Diamond, Uber VIP, IHG Platinum Elite, DDF Prez Platinum Elite, AmEx Platinum
Re: False allegations
« Reply #62 on: January 05, 2022, 12:23:19 PM »
You are right. So it doesn't have to be intentional, but publishers can still often get away with it when the subject is famous.
It is easier to get away with it because actual malice wouldn’t be required in a case of a private citizen. To sum up the difference:

With a private citizen you can win a case if the information was false, period. With a public figure you need to demonstrate that the publisher knew or should have known it was false. Either way, in a case such as the CW allegations where the journalist claims to have spoken with those involved in 15 separate cases and 3 actual victims on the record, this would be an easy case for CW to win if it were untrue.

You know why there aren’t many defamation lawsuits won (although Nick Sandman got a payday)? Because newspapers do a pretty good job in general of verifying information they propose as fact and provide sources.

Offline Moshe123

  • Dansdeals Lifetime Presidential Platinum Elite
  • *********
  • Join Date: Sep 2012
  • Posts: 5783
  • Total likes: 500
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 1
  • Gender: Male
    • View Profile
  • Location: Spring Valley
  • Programs: Lost
Re: False allegations
« Reply #63 on: January 05, 2022, 02:08:16 PM »
On some days I think as follows.

DDF has a huge following from the entire community.

Of course there are a number of actual abusers, adulterers, and pedophiles posting.

Offline S209

  • Dansdeals Lifetime Presidential Platinum Elite
  • *********
  • Join Date: Jun 2016
  • Posts: 6224
  • Total likes: 2416
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 0
  • Gender: Male
    • View Profile
    • Gowns By Shevy
  • Location: Lakewood
  • Programs: Marriott Gold, SPG Gold, Ritz Carlton Gold, *G, Hyatt Explorist, Hertz PC, National EE, Rock Royalty Wild Card, Wyndham Diamond, MLife Gold, Total Rewards Diamond, Hilton Diamond, Uber VIP, IHG Platinum Elite, DDF Prez Platinum Elite, AmEx Platinum
Re: False allegations
« Reply #64 on: January 05, 2022, 02:26:32 PM »
The following is an excerpt from a statement R’ S F Zimmerman made in 2016 following a well publicized case of abuse (where the offender, who came from a prominent family in the community, was sentenced to 13 years for the abuse of two teenage girls) in which he testified for the prosecution:

Quote
This week a judge passed sentence over a frum looking individual and sent him to jail for over 13 years for molesting children. … How did our society allow such a person to be in contact with children for so many years? How was such an individual allowed to coast from institution to institution despite his known background? His behaviour wasn’t a secret?!

Was he allowed to continue in his job because he came from a respected family? …

Reb Moshe Sternbuch said …”he’s more sick than wicked”. Yet that doesn’t vindicate the silence of the community and that is why we ask, “How were our children left for hefker”.

We have to wonder, how it is that there are those who err so much to provide unlimited support to child molesters and won’t instead help the victims. How is it that there are unlimited funds to aid the perpetrator and yet the victims struggle to get help for expensive therapy?

Not only that, but the victims suffer twice as the offender tries to bully them into silence. How have we stood by and watched this double whammy? These are broken souls which have been hit twice.

You should know that if a Rov is attacked in such a way, it may hurt him and his family, it may harm a community, but a Rov is a healthy individual living with a lot of self-confidence, yet these children are broken people. How has it been okay for us to ignore their plight? Is this the behaviour of people who are supposed to beרחמנים ביישנים וגומלי חסדים (merciful, modest and kind)?

This is a question directed to the public; to the whole community – how is it that we have neglected, how is it that we have kept quiet for something that has been known for so long?

It is most probably because we have no idea what damage is done when children are abused. We have to educate ourselves to understand the pain of these children. The abuse that they have suffered gnaws at them from every direction. Many times these children harm themselves or take their own lives. It can affect their mental state or their married lives even after many years. And of course it affects their spiritual lives too, especially if the molester is in the guise of a frum (ritually observant) person.

A recent study in the USA placed child abuse as the single biggest cause for people going “off-the-derech” (off the path) and despite all of this, over the past few months I have received many letters from victims who all seem to have a similar refrain: “Granted the molester is sick, but what about the community? Do those in charge not care?”

Moirai Veraboisai, it’s time that we say “Enough!” It’s time to end the silence. It is time that we said that no longer will we leave the next generation for hefker, for the sake of misguided values……

We have to learn וכשאני לעצמי מה אני- if we keep information to ourselves – what do we gain? We must learn how to handle and transfer information.


Offline S209

  • Dansdeals Lifetime Presidential Platinum Elite
  • *********
  • Join Date: Jun 2016
  • Posts: 6224
  • Total likes: 2416
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 0
  • Gender: Male
    • View Profile
    • Gowns By Shevy
  • Location: Lakewood
  • Programs: Marriott Gold, SPG Gold, Ritz Carlton Gold, *G, Hyatt Explorist, Hertz PC, National EE, Rock Royalty Wild Card, Wyndham Diamond, MLife Gold, Total Rewards Diamond, Hilton Diamond, Uber VIP, IHG Platinum Elite, DDF Prez Platinum Elite, AmEx Platinum
Re: False allegations
« Reply #65 on: January 05, 2022, 02:27:49 PM »
On some days I think as follows.

DDF has a huge following from the entire community.

Of course there are a number of actual abusers, adulterers, and pedophiles posting.
This is absolutely true, and part of the reason why we need to take all accusations seriously. How many of us considered CW the epitome of beyond reproach just two months ago? He openly discussed molestation and explored these sensitive issues in such a nuanced way!

Offline CountValentine

  • Dansdeals Lifetime 10K Presidential Platinum Elite
  • *******
  • Join Date: Mar 2013
  • Posts: 11128
  • Total likes: 3876
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips -1
  • Gender: Female
    • View Profile
  • Location: Poland - Exiled
  • Programs: DAOTYA, DDF Level 3, 5K Lounge
Re: False allegations
« Reply #66 on: January 05, 2022, 02:40:54 PM »
The following is an excerpt from a statement R’ S F Zimmerman made in 2016 following a well publicized case of abuse (where the offender, who came from a prominent family in the community, was sentenced to 13 years for the abuse of two teenage girls) in which he testified for the prosecution:
...and now it is 2022. When will it be no longer  :-X
You're so far up Trump's a** you can see Giuliani's feet.  HT Baruch

Offline S209

  • Dansdeals Lifetime Presidential Platinum Elite
  • *********
  • Join Date: Jun 2016
  • Posts: 6224
  • Total likes: 2416
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 0
  • Gender: Male
    • View Profile
    • Gowns By Shevy
  • Location: Lakewood
  • Programs: Marriott Gold, SPG Gold, Ritz Carlton Gold, *G, Hyatt Explorist, Hertz PC, National EE, Rock Royalty Wild Card, Wyndham Diamond, MLife Gold, Total Rewards Diamond, Hilton Diamond, Uber VIP, IHG Platinum Elite, DDF Prez Platinum Elite, AmEx Platinum
Re: False allegations
« Reply #67 on: January 05, 2022, 02:42:33 PM »
Source: Wikipedia

A false allegation of child sexual abuse is an accusation against an individual claiming they committed child sexual abuse when no abuse has been committed by the accused. Such accusations can be brought by the alleged victim, or by another person on the alleged victim's behalf. Studies on the rate of recorded child abuse allegations in the 1990s suggested that the overall rate of false accusations at that time was approximately 10%.

Of the allegations determined to be false, only a small portion originated with the child, the studies showed; most false allegations originated with an adult bringing the accusations on behalf of a child, and of those, a large majority occurred in the context of divorce and child-custody battles.

Another possible motive is revenge by the person making the allegation against the accused person. There is also evidence that the UK (and formerly the New Zealand) systems of paying substantial compensation to alleged victims and their parents without requiring proof of the allegation, can provide a motive for making false allegations.[citation needed] A number of false allegations of childhood sexual abuse have arisen from the use of a scientifically discredited technique called facilitated communication.

Offline CountValentine

  • Dansdeals Lifetime 10K Presidential Platinum Elite
  • *******
  • Join Date: Mar 2013
  • Posts: 11128
  • Total likes: 3876
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips -1
  • Gender: Female
    • View Profile
  • Location: Poland - Exiled
  • Programs: DAOTYA, DDF Level 3, 5K Lounge
Re: False allegations
« Reply #68 on: January 05, 2022, 02:49:05 PM »
...a large majority occurred in the context of divorce and child-custody battles.
This is why I said you have to state the circumstance when you are talking about false accusations.
With multiple accusers the chances are slim to none to being false. I know some will bring up the McMartin case but read the history of that case and how it started.
You're so far up Trump's a** you can see Giuliani's feet.  HT Baruch

Offline VacationLover

  • Dansdeals Lifetime Platinum Elite
  • *******
  • Join Date: Sep 2014
  • Posts: 1414
  • Total likes: 121
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 5
    • View Profile

Offline CountValentine

  • Dansdeals Lifetime 10K Presidential Platinum Elite
  • *******
  • Join Date: Mar 2013
  • Posts: 11128
  • Total likes: 3876
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips -1
  • Gender: Female
    • View Profile
  • Location: Poland - Exiled
  • Programs: DAOTYA, DDF Level 3, 5K Lounge
You're so far up Trump's a** you can see Giuliani's feet.  HT Baruch

Offline aygart

  • Dansdeals Lifetime 10K Presidential Platinum Elite
  • *******
  • Join Date: May 2008
  • Posts: 13624
  • Total likes: 8673
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 13
    • View Profile
    • Lower Watt Energy Brokers
  • Programs: www.lowerwatt.com
Re: False allegations
« Reply #71 on: January 05, 2022, 03:13:40 PM »
Feelings don't care about your facts

Offline Yehuda57

  • Dansdeals Presidential Platinum Elite
  • ********
  • Join Date: Jan 2014
  • Posts: 3295
  • Total likes: 8192
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 6
    • View Profile
    • Squilled
  • Location: Brooklyn
  • Programs: Official Dansdeals salad correspondent
Re: False allegations
« Reply #72 on: January 05, 2022, 03:15:14 PM »
http://www.prosecutorintegrity.org/pr/survey-over-20-million-have-been-falsely-accused-of-abuse/

Hold up, this looks like a survey of people who *report themselves* as having been falsely accused. Well I'll be.
Quote from: ExGingi
Yehuda57 needs to spew a certain amount of sarcasm in order to survive through the day.

Offline nbfromnj

  • Dansdeals Bronze Elite
  • *
  • Join Date: Nov 2020
  • Posts: 42
  • Total likes: 26
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 0
    • View Profile
  • Location: NJ
Re: False allegations
« Reply #73 on: January 05, 2022, 03:39:03 PM »
I understand that believing, supporting, validating victims of abuse is of extreme importance and is lifesaving for the victim.

Many people are saying that this should also largely reduce the occurrence of future abuse. I'm not saying that it wouldn't help at all but in general most people don't learn from other people's mistakes. Look how many people are sitting in federal prison for years and years for white collar crime and even so, there are many many more committing the same crimes. They are not learning from their neighbors who got caught. Is the drive that makes someone an abuser so different than the desire for money that just believing survivors is going to stop them in their tracks?

Offline aygart

  • Dansdeals Lifetime 10K Presidential Platinum Elite
  • *******
  • Join Date: May 2008
  • Posts: 13624
  • Total likes: 8673
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 13
    • View Profile
    • Lower Watt Energy Brokers
  • Programs: www.lowerwatt.com
Re: False allegations
« Reply #74 on: January 05, 2022, 03:47:09 PM »
I understand that believing, supporting, validating victims of abuse is of extreme importance and is lifesaving for the victim.

Many people are saying that this should also largely reduce the occurrence of future abuse. I'm not saying that it wouldn't help at all but in general most people don't learn from other people's mistakes. Look how many people are sitting in federal prison for years and years for white collar crime and even so, there are many many more committing the same crimes. They are not learning from their neighbors who got caught. Is the drive that makes someone an abuser so different than the desire for money that just believing survivors is going to stop them in their tracks?
If they are stopped after 1 or 2 victims and not after 50 that is a tremendous benefit.
Feelings don't care about your facts

Offline nbfromnj

  • Dansdeals Bronze Elite
  • *
  • Join Date: Nov 2020
  • Posts: 42
  • Total likes: 26
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 0
    • View Profile
  • Location: NJ
Re: False allegations
« Reply #75 on: January 05, 2022, 03:55:19 PM »
If they are stopped after 1 or 2 victims and not after 50 that is a tremendous benefit.

if it could then tremendous is an understatement. but does believing the victim stop the abuser? from what i've been reading the past week it seems like many times it might not. most cases don't make it court and even the ones that do don't have enough evidence, etc... (cw was accused and suspected and cases were brought to beis din and couples divorced etc but it seems it didn't stop him)

Offline CountValentine

  • Dansdeals Lifetime 10K Presidential Platinum Elite
  • *******
  • Join Date: Mar 2013
  • Posts: 11128
  • Total likes: 3876
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips -1
  • Gender: Female
    • View Profile
  • Location: Poland - Exiled
  • Programs: DAOTYA, DDF Level 3, 5K Lounge
Re: False allegations
« Reply #76 on: January 05, 2022, 03:56:55 PM »
Hold up, this looks like a survey of people who *report themselves* as having been falsely accused. Well I'll be.
How many in prison say they were falsely accused?  :)
You're so far up Trump's a** you can see Giuliani's feet.  HT Baruch

Offline CountValentine

  • Dansdeals Lifetime 10K Presidential Platinum Elite
  • *******
  • Join Date: Mar 2013
  • Posts: 11128
  • Total likes: 3876
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips -1
  • Gender: Female
    • View Profile
  • Location: Poland - Exiled
  • Programs: DAOTYA, DDF Level 3, 5K Lounge
Re: False allegations
« Reply #77 on: January 05, 2022, 04:00:35 PM »
if it could then tremendous is an understatement. but does believing the victim stop the abuser? from what i've been reading the past week it seems like many times it might not. most cases don't make it court and even the ones that do don't have enough evidence, etc... (cw was accused and suspected and cases were brought to beis din and couples divorced etc but it seems it didn't stop him)
You will not stop them. It is the awareness that will stop them before they do tremendous damage.
Bad people will do bad things, but we must try and limit those bad acts.
You're so far up Trump's a** you can see Giuliani's feet.  HT Baruch

Offline Yehuda57

  • Dansdeals Presidential Platinum Elite
  • ********
  • Join Date: Jan 2014
  • Posts: 3295
  • Total likes: 8192
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 6
    • View Profile
    • Squilled
  • Location: Brooklyn
  • Programs: Official Dansdeals salad correspondent
Re: False allegations
« Reply #78 on: January 05, 2022, 04:02:31 PM »
I understand that believing, supporting, validating victims of abuse is of extreme importance and is lifesaving for the victim.

Isn't that enough?! Imagine all this talk caused one life to be saved? But more, creating awareness and changing the dialogue means survivors reading threads like these, and hearing the discussions when they occur at Shabbos tables or in shul will be hearing a validating message of support. We'll be saving lives without even realizing.

If we stop serial abusers by empowering people to come forward with their allegations, even better!
but does believing the victim stop the abuser? from what i've been reading the past week it seems like many times it might not. most cases don't make it court and even the ones that do don't have enough evidence, etc... (cw was accused and suspected and cases were brought to beis din and couples divorced etc but it seems it didn't stop him)

You're bringing an example of cases where survivors were not believed. Upthread there was a link posted to one of the rabonim on the BD who heard testimony who said victims said it was the first time they were believed.
Quote from: ExGingi
Yehuda57 needs to spew a certain amount of sarcasm in order to survive through the day.

Offline EliJelly

  • Dansdeals Lifetime Platinum Elite
  • *******
  • Join Date: Jan 2019
  • Posts: 1667
  • Total likes: 1276
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 1
    • View Profile
Re: False allegations
« Reply #79 on: January 05, 2022, 08:03:47 PM »
On some days I think as follows.

DDF has a huge following from the entire community.

Of course there are a number of actual abusers, adulterers, and pedophiles posting.
How many members engage in the daily back and forth JS topics? I'd think less than 25. I believe that they're all good G'd fearing people who keep the 613. (and the 7 Noahide laws, so I covered CV too :) )