False allegations

[S209]

At Weberman’s trial there was a certain fellow who was arrested for making a disturbance because he was heckling the accuser during her testimony. When they processed him they entered his name on the arrest record as Lemon Juice- because he had his name legally changed prior to the trial knowing that he was going to get himself arrested.



My uncle always says if he would have changed his name to Prune Juice instead he would have gotten out faster.

[S209]

It wasn't really a debate, the vast majority of the chassidish velt saw him as a scapegoat.

Isn’t that nuts?

You asked “Who do we believe” in such a scenario. “What do we do”.

This is one of the few cases where (after far too long) the result was actually exactly what we should be striving for.

[AsherO]

It wasn't really a debate, the vast majority of the chassidish velt saw him as a scapegoat.

It's wishful thinking that things have changed, after his sentence on 103 years everyone was pointing to that as the reason we can't go to secular authorities

The irony is that you’re suggesting it wasn’t a debate because the community thought it was a scapegoat, when really it wasn’t a debate because he was guilty as sin and it was well overdue.

[Yehuda57]

It wasn't really a debate, the vast majority of the chassidish velt saw him as a scapegoat.

A scapegoat for what/who?

[AsherO]

A scapegoat for what/who?

Being an actual scapegoat would probably be more just (as in justice) than the 103 years he got…

[VacationLover]

iirc in this case you had one accusation/testimony, no Beis din.

If you're referring to me, I made it clear that court is just as good (perhaps better in this subject) than BD. And 1 claim is sufficient to trigger a full investigation.

[VacationLover]

No, even with just one accuser in the great majority of cases the accusation is true (see upthread for some statistics on false accusations with estimates from 2-30%, meaning anywhere between 70% to 98% of allegations are true). However, with multiple accusers it is just about guaranteed to be true.

Furthermore in this case there were at least 10 accusers. “Accusers” doesn’t just mean someone who took the stand (very few victims agree to take the stand especially in our communities). Accusers means people who come forward to anyone. See the article I posted.

To move on with this subject, and try to help:
If only there would be a place people can report to (think Amudim etc.) And victims don't have to turn to the secular press I think it would be a tremendous help in regards that a bigger percent of people who are in denial should start believing and realizing. And it would help the victims as well. Awareness alone is helpful, but not enough.

There needs to be the "someone" to start such an organization/branch/program. IMHO this will be the most beneficial thing we can do to our communities in this subject.

[S209]

If only there would be a place people can report to (think Amudim etc.) And victims don't have to turn to the secular press I think it would be a tremendous help in regards that a bigger percent of people who are in denial should start believing and realizing. And it would help the victims as well. Awareness alone is helpful, but not enough.

There needs to be the "someone" to start such an organization/branch/program. IMHO this will be the most beneficial thing we can do to our communities in this subject.

Why don’t you?

[VacationLover]

Why don’t you?

מי אנכי?
There are far bigger, smarter, talented people who know way more than me. Amudim etc. Already has very much information and resources to take it off.

[EliJelly]

It wasn't really a debate, the vast majority of the chassidish velt saw him as a scapegoat.

It's wishful thinking that things have changed, after his sentence on 103 years everyone was pointing to that as the reason we can't go to secular authorities

His family used their energy and talent (which they inherently have abundantly) to paint a scapegoat picture of the secular press vs. the chassidic communities, and they were quite successful with that. If only they'd listen to the senior askanim to take the plea deal that Charles Hynes offered of five years they would do a whole lot better for him and the community. But obviously we can't judge them.

This is one of the few cases where (after far too long) the result was actually exactly what we should be striving for.

I'm very troubled with that line. Even if something is 100% true, how can we say that prison sentences is a result we should be striving for? The only heter to go to authorities is to stop a predator who's posing an actual danger. If a therapist is being stripped of all his roles, has no more young girls coming to his office, has served some time in prison, essentially a שברי כלי, why would you say that such a person getting 103 years in prison is something we are striving for?? We should leave it to G-d to take care of sinners.

[JlmBoi]

If a therapist is being stripped of all his roles, has no more young girls coming to his office, has served some time in prison, essentially a שברי כלי, why would you say that such a person getting 103 years in prison is something we are striving for?? We should leave it to G-d to take care of sinners.

Big If. Who is signing off on that? The community that still maintains his innocence?

[EliJelly]

Big If. Who is signing off on that? The community that still maintains his innocence?

Draw the line where you want, at the age of 80 or 90, wherever you're comfortable that he no longer poses a danger of snatching girls off the street. This man is no longer capable to and wouldn't be given any therapy roles anyway. 

[VacationLover]

Big If. Who is signing off on that? The community that still maintains his innocence?

I don't want to sideline this discussion, but this was not discussed before:
The fact is that there are support groups in every single community for such (sick) people. Similar to gamblers anonymous. So, there are some programs and help, people who have unhealthy habits can do if they want to get helped. So in theory there are helpful things they can do to get out of it. This is in no way a sign-off that they are safe. But besides the prison, or lets say in the above case where he had a 5 year plea bargain. He could've gone to such a  program (I assume the court would require him to go)

[JlmBoi]

wouldn't be given any therapy roles anyway.

Im not sure of that at all. Look no further than Walder.

[AsherO]

I don't want to sideline this discussion, but this was not discussed before:
The fact is that there are support groups in every single community for such (sick) people. Similar to gamblers anonymous. So, there are some programs and help, people who have unhealthy habits can do if they want to get helped. So in theory there are helpful things they can do to get out of it. This is in no way a sign-off that they are safe. But besides the prison, or lets say in the above case where he had a 5 year plea bargain. He could've gone to such a  program (I assume the court would require him to go)

1. Prison sentences are justice, they give closure to victims. AYLOR if that’s a justification, I’m not clear myself what to the Torah’s view is on this (in general, for any crime) as the Torah doesn’t really use prison, it would typically be malkos or misas BD.
2. They take someone dangerous off the streets. Whether that’s necessary is debatable.
3. They create a significant deterrent.

While such programs do exist, and the people working at those programs deserve commendation, someone with such proclivities can’t necessarily be healed.

[EliJelly]

Im not sure of that at all. Look no further than Walder.

In Walders case although they clearly were oblivious to the various red flags over the years, but I'm sure he wouldn't continue as a therapist after being tried, all evidence made publicly, and certainly not after serving some years in prison.

[Yehuda57]

If a therapist is being stripped of all his roles, has no more young girls coming to his office, has served some time in prison, essentially a שברי כלי, why would you say that such a person getting 103 years in prison is something we are striving for?? We should leave it to G-d to take care of sinners.

What part of how the story went down indicates that any of this would have happened?

I'm no fan of the prison system in this country for numerous reasons, and won't address what I feel about 100-year sentences in general. But without him being locked up by the government, there is no reason to think he would have stopped abusing people. He didn't only abuse "patients". He wasn't a therapist, he was a manipulator. "The community" that defended him has never backtracked or apologized to that victim or any other victims. There's more than enough evidence that a person with his narcissism wouldn't be the harmless שברי כלי you describe.

[JlmBoi]

I don't want to sideline this discussion, but this was not discussed before:
The fact is that there are support groups in every single community for such (sick) people. Similar to gamblers anonymous. So, there are some programs and help, people who have unhealthy habits can do if they want to get helped. So in theory there are helpful things they can do to get out of it. This is in no way a sign-off that they are safe. But besides the prison, or lets say in the above case where he had a 5 year plea bargain. He could've gone to such a  program (I assume the court would require him to go)

This ties into what I mentioned earlier about the best way of dealing with these people. Part of the issue is that because many are so evil it's a massive stigma to have on one's head. All the more so in communities where anything sexual is taboo. There is discussion whether there should be ways that dont harm anyone directly for them to use or that makes the problem bigger. If they should be medically treated or some other kind of "conversion" or such.

[AsherO]

I'm very troubled with that line. Even if something is 100% true, how can we say that prison sentences is a result we should be striving for? The only heter to go to authorities is to stop a predator who's posing an actual danger. If a therapist is being stripped of all his roles, has no more young girls coming to his office, has served some time in prison, essentially a שברי כלי, why would you say that such a person getting 103 years in prison is something we are striving for?? We should leave it to G-d to take care of sinners.

He had the choice of accepting a 5 year plea bargain, instead he put his victims through the pain of getting cross examined just so he can go free. For that, he deserves 103 years in human court, and Hashem can take care of the rest.

[JlmBoi]

In Walders case although they clearly were oblivious to the various red flags over the years, but I'm sure he wouldn't continue as a therapist after being tried, all evidence made publicly, and certainly not after serving some years in prison.

So ur saying he doesn't have to sit in jail bc he won't be a therapist now that he sat in jail?