False allegations

[yelped]

I always found it shocking and extremely disturbing how abuse is not treated the same way murder is when the Torah treats it the same way (and treats Eishes Ish the same way), and somehow all of a sudden a ton of people are out in force hushing things and supporting perpetrators, even though we are supposedly so busy with Kedusha Inyanim. All of a sudden, it's ok when these perps actually perpetrate the worst depravities, and we will ignore it all, but it's terrible if someone as a smartphone, especially without a filter, and has issues getting into schools, etc. It makes absolutely no sense and is mind boggling.

Why in the world would someone even think of trying to defend these low lives and ignore it and pretend everything is normal?

I have nothing against being strong in Kedusha Inyanim, but I have no idea how that jives with at the same time ignoring the crimes of abuse and giving the perpetrators a free pass. And I'm not even talking about the Bein Adam Lacheivoroi part where by ignoring the crimes of the perpetrators you literally show that you don't give a hoot about any person or any morals, and you literally kill a generation with the hypocrisy.

[yerushabubby]

One issue is that a murderer realizes that his actions cause harm.

Unfortunately, many abusers are blind to the extent of damage that they are inflicting.  This in no way excuses them from responsibility for the damage they do, but their actions usually come from a place of taava rather than desire to harm.

[VacationLover]

One issue is that a murderer realizes that his actions cause harm.

Unfortunately, many abusers are blind to the extent of damage that they are inflicting.  This in no way excuses them from responsibility for the damage they do, but their actions usually come from a place of taava rather than desire to harm.

I think you hit it on the nail. And therefore this emphasizes the importance of awareness.

[aygart]

I always found it shocking and extremely disturbing how abuse is not treated the same way murder is when the Torah treats it the same way (and treats Eishes Ish the same way), and somehow all of a sudden a ton of people are out in force hushing things and supporting perpetrators, even though we are supposedly so busy with Kedusha Inyanim.

+1
כי כאשר יקום איש על רעהו ורצחו נפש כן הדבר הזה

[yerushabubby]

I always found it shocking and extremely disturbing how abuse is not treated the same way murder is when the Torah treats it the same way (and treats Eishes Ish the same way), and somehow all of a sudden a ton of people are out in force hushing things and supporting perpetrators, even though we are supposedly so busy with Kedusha Inyanim. All of a sudden, it's ok when these perps actually perpetrate the worst depravities, and we will ignore it all, but it's terrible if someone as a smartphone, especially without a filter, and has issues getting into schools, etc. It makes absolutely no sense and is mind boggling.

Why in the world would someone even think of trying to defend these low lives and ignore it and pretend everything is normal?

I have nothing against being strong in Kedusha Inyanim, but I have no idea how that jives with at the same time ignoring the crimes of abuse and giving the perpetrators a free pass. And I'm not even talking about the Bein Adam Lacheivoroi part where by ignoring the crimes of the perpetrators you literally show that you don't give a hoot about any person or any morals, and you literally kill a generation with the hypocrisy.

I don't think there are any rational people who think these acts are ok.  Part of the problem with discussing these things openly is the tznius factor - especially when speaking to adolescent boys.  I know of a case where a teenage boy started touching young girls (fully dressed,, and young enough not to realize what he was doing) after hearing about a case of abuse, in an effort to try to understand what makes it something people desire.  B"H, he was able to be helped, and as far as I know the girls are fine, but it could have been much worse.  Yes, we need to make sure people can discuss it, but it must be done with care.

[EliJelly]

I don't think Levi Aron is a שותומ׳׳צ, but I know of a few cases of convicted murderers who have become שותומ׳׳צ in jail and a lot of גוטע אידן are going out of their way to help them, constantly visiting them, bringing kosher food etc. I've personally donated already to such cases to seek parole and the like. I understand that this mindset and attitude is more prevalent among chassidim.

[Yehuda57]

I don't think Levi Aron is a שותומ׳׳צ, but I know of a few cases of convicted murderers who have become שותומ׳׳צ in jail and a lot of גוטע אידן are going out of their way to help them, constantly visiting them, bringing kosher food etc. I've personally donated already to such cases to seek parole and the like. I understand that this mindset and attitude is more prevalent among chassidim.

I would bring kosher food and donate money to help Weberman in jail if it was needed. That's not a contradiction to keeping him the heck away from our children, and so long as we don't have a system to deal with the issue (heck, his community doesn't even believe he did anything wrong), the authorities are the only way to do so.

[yelped]

I don't think there are any rational people who think these acts are ok.  Part of the problem with discussing these things openly is the tznius factor - especially when speaking to adolescent boys.  I know of a case where a teenage boy started touching young girls (fully dressed,, and young enough not to realize what he was doing) after hearing about a case of abuse, in an effort to try to understand what makes it something people desire.  B"H, he was able to be helped, and as far as I know the girls are fine, but it could have been much worse.  Yes, we need to make sure people can discuss it, but it must be done with care.

I don't understand what your point regarding how to discuss these topics have to do with the fact that the community accepts these perpetrators as if nothing happened and did nothing wrong, when we treat other inyanei Kedusha with the utmost gravity.

[Ver hut gazugt]

+1
כי כאשר יקום איש על רעהו ורצחו נפש כן הדבר הזה

afaik this is only by asesh aish, not a ponuya.

[aygart]

afaik this is only by asesh aish, not a ponuya.

Regarding mtzilin binafshom? Nope any erva including mishkav zachar. I am not clear about nida. Either way, it I to be matzil from the aveira but that wouldn't change the concept.

[AsherO]

afaik this is only by asesh aish, not a ponuya.

It’s actually נערה המארשה and clear from Rashi and other meforshim (look it up דברים פרק כ״ב פסוק כ״ו) that the analogy to murder is referring to the non-consensual/rape aspect of the offense.

[yerushabubby]

I don't understand what your point regarding how to discuss these topics have to do with the fact that the community accepts these perpetrators as if nothing happened and did nothing wrong, when we treat other inyanei Kedusha with the utmost gravity.

My point is that not discussing it publicly is not the same as accepting the perpetrators.  Sometimes, especially when there is a way to keep the perpetrator away from kids, a quiet investigation is better for the community in general.  Once the allegations are confirmed, things can be made public in a way that does not compromise the victims rights in any way.

[AsherO]

a quiet investigation is better for the community in general.

Better in what way? The kind of community attitude you're expressing is what perpetuates the environment that allows for abuse to happen.

[yelped]

My point is that not discussing it publicly is not the same as accepting the perpetrators.  Sometimes, especially when there is a way to keep the perpetrator away from kids, a quiet investigation is better for the community in general.  Once the allegations are confirmed, things can be made public in a way that does not compromise the victims rights in any way.

Let's say. Have you ever seen that being done? All I see is people not let into schools for having smartphones and these perpetrators are defended publicly and loudly.

[zh cohen]

analogy to murder is referring to the non-consensual/rape aspect of the offense.

There are layers of meaning to this (and every) passuk. A passuk is not meant to be understood only in one way.

[S209]

I don't think Levi Aron is a שותומ׳׳צ, but I know of a few cases of convicted murderers who have become שותומ׳׳צ in jail and a lot of גוטע אידן are going out of their way to help them, constantly visiting them, bringing kosher food etc. I've personally donated already to such cases to seek parole and the like. I understand that this mindset and attitude is more prevalent among chassidim.

But to the point that I asked: Did you find his life sentence disturbing as you did Weberman’s?

[AsherO]

There are layers of meaning to this (and every) passuk. A passuk is not meant to be understood only in one way.

Sure, but in this specific case Rashi literally says that this is Peshat.

[aygart]

It’s actually נערה המארשה and clear from Rashi and other meforshim (look it up דברים פרק כ״ב פסוק כ״ו) that the analogy to murder is referring to the non-consensual/rape aspect of the offense.

See SA Ch"M 425:3
Rambam Rotzeiach 1:11

[aygart]

Did it include post-conviction prison sentences? If yes, please share sources for that, I’d love to learn more.

My recollection is that the Rambam discusses it in hilchos melachim. I'll go ask a lubavitcher about that.

[AsherO]

My recollection is that the Rambam discusses it in hilchos melachim. I'll go ask a lubavitcher about that.

Lubavitchers are by far most familiar with the last two chapters of him his melachim, I can tell you for sure it isn’t in those two chapters.