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This thread is to discuss whether people feel that something is unethical, not to find out what the law*/T&C says.

Any Halachic questions should be posted here.

*According to CountValentine this includes religion, but unfortunately for him, the general consensus is that religion will always be entwined in this thread.

*Hint* If you have to ask, It's most likely not ethical.
« Last edited by UKinNYS on April 13, 2021, 11:51:23 AM »

Author Topic: Is It Ethical?  (Read 556228 times)

Offline AJK

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Re: Is It Ethical?
« Reply #1200 on: December 15, 2013, 11:14:23 AM »
+ Context = implicit assumption.

But I'm happy I'm wrong.
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Offline CountValentine

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Re: Is It Ethical?
« Reply #1201 on: December 15, 2013, 11:17:10 AM »
But I'm happy I'm wrong.
If you are happy I am happy!  :)
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Offline YankyDoodle

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Re: Is It Ethical?
« Reply #1202 on: December 15, 2013, 01:28:05 PM »
I fully understand your point. Your religion like my religion decides if something is ethical or not based on its teachings. I am able to think outside my religion. Someone that can’t think outside their religion has been brainwashed.

Well put! As the good book says...

Offline SamKey

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Re: Is It Ethical?
« Reply #1203 on: December 15, 2013, 06:30:01 PM »
I fully understand your point. Your religion like my religion decides if something is ethical or not based on its teachings. I am able to think outside my religion. Someone that can’t think outside their religion has been brainwashed.
I disagree why can't you agree with the ethics of your religion

Offline itsyehuda

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Re: Is It Ethical?
« Reply #1204 on: December 19, 2013, 05:56:33 PM »
I disagree why can't you agree with the ethics of your religion

Not everything that is prohibited in Judaism is prohibited on an ethical basis. It wouldn't be a departure from the religion to say that it isn't unethical to wear a certain type of hair covering, even were that hair covering prohibited by the religion. All of the prohibitions in the Torah that are based on spiritual concerns have no overt basis in ethics. Some of those prohibitions are specific to certain classes of people, (Jews vs. gentiles, priests vs. levites, etc.) and therefore cannot be inherently unethical.

A general way to divide them up would be that interpersonal laws are based in ethics and laws between man and God are based on spirituality.
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Offline SamKey

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Re: Is It Ethical?
« Reply #1205 on: December 19, 2013, 06:30:16 PM »
Not everything that is prohibited in Judaism is prohibited on an ethical basis. It wouldn't be a departure from the religion to say that it isn't unethical to wear a certain type of hair covering, even were that hair covering prohibited by the religion. All of the prohibitions in the Torah that are based on spiritual concerns have no overt basis in ethics. Some of those prohibitions are specific to certain classes of people, (Jews vs. gentiles, priests vs. levites, etc.) and therefore cannot be inherently unethical.

A general way to divide them up would be that interpersonal laws are based in ethics and laws between man and God are based on spirituality.
I agree that not everything is "ethical" but I absolutely disagree with your chiluk

Offline itsyehuda

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Re: Is It Ethical?
« Reply #1206 on: December 19, 2013, 07:51:00 PM »
I agree that not everything is "ethical" but I absolutely disagree with your chiluk

So give me an example of a chok that is ethics based.
I remember when a coke was a nickel, and you could buy VRs in OD.

Offline SamKey

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Re: Is It Ethical?
« Reply #1207 on: December 19, 2013, 10:02:28 PM »
So give me an example of a chok that is ethics based.
Chok does not equal spirituality. It is perfectly ethical to be a godly person
And FTR R Shlomo Wolbe says that all morals are based on the level of a persons fear of God (which does make sense) so it all bills down to how spiritual you are, but again that, just FTR
« Last Edit: December 19, 2013, 10:06:57 PM by SamKey »

Offline itsyehuda

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Re: Is It Ethical?
« Reply #1208 on: December 20, 2013, 12:39:09 PM »
Chok does not equal spirituality. It is perfectly ethical to be a godly person
And FTR R Shlomo Wolbe says that all morals are based on the level of a persons fear of God (which does make sense) so it all bills down to how spiritual you are, but again that, just FTR

I didn't say it was unethical to be spiritual. I said that it wasn't unethical to not be spiritual

If a person lives his whole life as an honest, kind person who doesn't harm others, and lives by the maxim "do unto others as you would have done to you", they are completely ethical even if they never prayed a day in their life.
I remember when a coke was a nickel, and you could buy VRs in OD.

Offline SamKey

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Re: Is It Ethical?
« Reply #1209 on: December 21, 2013, 06:20:49 PM »
I didn't say it was unethical to be spiritual. I said that it wasn't unethical to not be spiritual

If a person lives his whole life as an honest, kind person who doesn't harm others, and lives by the maxim "do unto others as you would have done to you", they are completely ethical even if they never prayed a day in their life.
I rest my case

Offline itsyehuda

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Re: Is It Ethical?
« Reply #1210 on: December 21, 2013, 07:41:45 PM »
I remember when a coke was a nickel, and you could buy VRs in OD.

Offline Aaaron

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Re: Is It Ethical?
« Reply #1211 on: March 06, 2014, 07:17:39 PM »
We need some electrical work done and a general contractor buddy sent over his electrician and told me to expect the estimate to be around $1,500.  His guy gave me an estimate of over $2,000.

I have another company coming tomorrow to give me an estimate.  Can I say I have an estimate for $1,500?  Can I photoshop the original estimate to show $1,500 to try to get the new company to meet/beat/come close?

Offline CountValentine

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Re: Is It Ethical?
« Reply #1212 on: March 06, 2014, 07:19:56 PM »
We need some electrical work done and a general contractor buddy sent over his electrician and told me to expect the estimate to be around $1,500.  His guy gave me an estimate of over $2,000.

I have another company coming tomorrow to give me an estimate.  Can I say I have an estimate for $1,500?  Can I photoshop the original estimate to show $1,500 to try to get the new company to meet/beat/come close?
You can do all that but in no way would it be ethical.
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Offline Crazy tools

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Re: Is It Ethical?
« Reply #1213 on: March 06, 2014, 07:20:14 PM »
We need some electrical work done and a general contractor buddy sent over his electrician and told me to expect the estimate to be around $1,500.  His guy gave me an estimate of over $2,000.

I have another company coming tomorrow to give me an estimate.  Can I say I have an estimate for $1,500?  Can I photoshop the original estimate to show $1,500 to try to get the new company to meet/beat/come close?
Just cuz he told you that the estimate should be around 1500 didn't mean you have an estimate of that price. He came down for a reason!!
Obviously the job was more complicated than he originally thought...

Offline SamKey

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Re: Is It Ethical?
« Reply #1214 on: March 06, 2014, 07:24:18 PM »
We need some electrical work done and a general contractor buddy sent over his electrician and told me to expect the estimate to be around $1,500.  His guy gave me an estimate of over $2,000.

I have another company coming tomorrow to give me an estimate.  Can I say I have an estimate for $1,500?  Can I photoshop the original estimate to show $1,500 to try to get the new company to meet/beat/come close?
IMO Don't show the estimate but tell him that is what you got quoted, that's business.

Offline Aaaron

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Re: Is It Ethical?
« Reply #1215 on: March 06, 2014, 07:25:15 PM »
You can do all that but in no way would it be ethical.

That's why I ask.  My moral compass doesn't always point north.

Just cuz he told you that the estimate should be around 1500 didn't mean you have an estimate of that price. He came down for a reason!!
Obviously the job was more complicated than he originally thought...

Nah, I think he saw my cars and decided to charge me more.  He's a sub to my general contractor buddies that use him all the time and know his rate on this fairly common procedure.

I guess we'll see where they come in tomorrow and I'll go from there.

Offline CountValentine

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Re: Is It Ethical?
« Reply #1216 on: March 06, 2014, 07:35:40 PM »
That's why I ask.  My moral compass doesn't always point north.
...and no two members use the same compass. Do what you think is right.
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Offline Crazy tools

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Re: Is It Ethical?
« Reply #1217 on: March 06, 2014, 07:38:02 PM »
Do what you think is right.
Father tells me that all the time..... kind of makes doing the wrong thing really hard. In most cases you really do know what's right, you're just looking for a way out of it.

Offline skyguy918

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Re: Is It Ethical?
« Reply #1218 on: March 06, 2014, 11:00:29 PM »
We need some electrical work done and a general contractor buddy sent over his electrician and told me to expect the estimate to be around $1,500.  His guy gave me an estimate of over $2,000.

I have another company coming tomorrow to give me an estimate.  Can I say I have an estimate for $1,500?  Can I photoshop the original estimate to show $1,500 to try to get the new company to meet/beat/come close?
Just tell them your general contractor said he thinks his guy can do it for $1500.

Also, why don't you talk to your general contractor and ask him what the story is (ie why'd his guy come in so much higher than his ballpark estimate).

Offline churnbabychurn

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Re: Is It Ethical?
« Reply #1219 on: March 06, 2014, 11:36:18 PM »
Imho the best way to deal with bids is to tell them both that there is another bidder and not tell them the amount.
Whoever come in lower is the winner. Its also 100% ethical