Is It Ethical?

[skyguy918]

Can we stop with the "you're allowed to steal from a non-jew" BS. While it may be halachically okay (is it?), the chilul Hashem that it can cause definitely isn't. Coming from someone that spends the majority of his day interacting with non-jews, it's saddening how bad of a reputation us Jews have gotten because of people who conduct their business with this line of reasoning. And the ethical thing to do would be to report it.

Your general point about chillul Hashem may be valid, but it has nothing to do with the scenario presented. There is no question of stealing here, it's considered aveidas akum. There is no potential for chillul Hashem whatsoever.

Some say that, despite there being no halachic obligation to do so, it is proper to inform the goy where it will be a kiddush Hashem. But in a situation like this, where you'll be taking to some Indian rep of a bit online company, there is little chance of that.

[CS91]

Your general point about chillul Hashem may be valid, but it has nothing to do with the scenario presented. There is no question of stealing here, it's considered aveidas akum. There is no potential for chillul Hashem whatsoever.

Some say that, despite there being no halachic obligation to do so, it is proper to inform the goy where it will be a kiddush Hashem. But in a situation like this, where you'll be taking to some Indian rep of a bit online company, there is little chance of that.

It may be that in this specific scenario there isn't a significant chance of there being a chilul Hashem. However, something tells me that the people that are saying that it isn't a big deal to not notify them in this scenario are the same people that are making chilul Hashems in other situations. Overall, we have a very bad rep and there are plenty of people who despise Jews / are reluctant to hire us because of the dishonest ones among us who are ruining it for the rest of us.

[Achas Veachas]

It may be that in this specific scenario there isn't a significant chance of there being a chilul Hashem. However, something tells me that the people that are saying that it isn't a big deal to not notify them in this scenario are the same people that are making chilul Hashems in other situations. Overall, we have a very bad rep and there are plenty of people who despise Jews / are reluctant to hire us because of and are blaming it on the dishonest ones among us who are ruining it for the rest of us.

FTFY

[skyguy918]

It may be that in this specific scenario there isn't a significant chance of there being a chilul Hashem. However, something tells me that the people that are saying that it isn't a big deal to not notify them in this scenario are the same people that are making chilul Hashems in other situations. Overall, we have a very bad rep and there are plenty of people who despise Jews / are reluctant to hire us because of the dishonest ones among us who are ruining it for the rest of us.

If that's the case, do yourself a favor and be careful where you take aim. Lashing out aimlessly at anything you deem in the vicinity of chillul Hashem will not help the cause when there's no actual chillul Hashem or unethical behavior involved, even if you think the person involved is unscrupulous.

[CS91]

FTFY

Do me a favor and don't fix anything for me. I know what I wrote and companies aren't just "blaming" things on certain people. What I said isn't mere speculation. It's coming from people (some of them frum) who are high up on the hiring committees at large companies/firms/banks. Jews are becoming known as people who will cut any corner they can and scam whoever crosses their path and it is unfortunate.

[skyguy918]

Do me a favor and don't fix anything for me. I know what I wrote and companies aren't just "blaming" things on certain people. What I said isn't mere speculation. It's coming from people (some of them frum) who are high up on the hiring committees at large companies/firms/banks. Jews are becoming known as people who will cut any corner they can and scam whoever crosses their path and it is unfortunate.

That's a bunch of baloney.

[CS91]

That's a bunch of baloney.

And you're saying that based on what? Your extensive knowledge of what goes on at hiring committee meetings of Fortune 500 companies and top-tier banks and law/accounting firms? Because that's where my information is coming from. Here are some of the reasons that I've heard of why some companies no longer want to hire frum people:

1) They show up to client meetings looking like a caveman because they say that they aren't allowed to shave during the 3 weeks or sefira (not realizing that there are a fair amount of other employees that are frum and are shaving during those time periods, therefore making it clear to partners that they are full of it).

2) Frum employees still leaving early on Friday during the summer months because they choose to make early Shabbos or decide that they need to go to the Catskills for Shabbos.

3) Using the "you can't bother me about working less hours than my co-workers because I have Shabbos which makes me leave early on Friday/not respond to emails on Shabbos, and if you do it's discrimination" excuse, when what they should be doing is putting in extra hours on Saturday night or Sunday to make up for it.

Should I keep going, or do these scenarios sound strikingly familiar to you? 

[thaber]

Sefira beards is definitely baloney this decade.
Taking advantage of discrimination protection is far more prevalent in other communities than it is in the Orthodox one.

[Myccrabbi]

Can we stop with the "you're allowed to steal from a non-jew" BS. While it may be halachically okay (is it?), the chilul Hashem that it can cause definitely isn't. Coming from someone that spends the majority of his day interacting with non-jews, it's saddening how bad of a reputation us Jews have gotten because of people who conduct their business with this line of reasoning. And the ethical thing to do would be to report it.

Wow, so you started over here: http://forums.dansdeals.com/index.php?topic=37134.0
And then you continue to thread crapping here.
If you are a self hating jew just say:
I HATE MYSELF (loud)

[Achas Veachas]

Do me a favor and don't fix anything for me. I know what I wrote and companies aren't just "blaming" things on certain people. What I said isn't mere speculation. It's coming from people (some of them frum) who are high up on the hiring committees at large companies/firms/banks. Jews are becoming known as people who will cut any corner they can and scam whoever crosses their path and it is unfortunate.

Jews have been "known" that way for years, doesn't make it true. There are greedy people everywhere, there are lazy employees everywhere, there are dishonest people everywhere.

[Myccrabbi]

Jews have been "known" that way for years, doesn't make it true. There are greedy people everywhere, there are lazy employees everywhere, there are dishonest people everywhere.

+1000

[skyguy918]

And you're saying that based on what? Your extensive knowledge of what goes on at hiring committee meetings of Fortune 500 companies and top-tier banks and law/accounting firms? Because that's where my information is coming from. Here are some of the reasons that I've heard of why some companies no longer want to hire frum people:

1) They show up to client meetings looking like a caveman because they say that they aren't allowed to shave during the 3 weeks or sefira (not realizing that there are a fair amount of other employees that are frum and are shaving during those time periods, therefore making it clear to partners that they are full of it).

2) Frum employees still leaving early on Friday during the summer months because they choose to make early Shabbos or decide that they need to go to the Catskills for Shabbos.

3) Using the "you can't bother me about working less hours than my co-workers because I have Shabbos which makes me leave early on Friday/not respond to emails on Shabbos, and if you do it's discrimination" excuse, when what they should be doing is putting in extra hours on Saturday night or Sunday to make up for it.

Should I keep going, or do these scenarios sound strikingly familiar to you?

These are strikingly unfamiliar. As is your doom and gloom outlook of the job market for frum professionals. This is beside for the fact that a hiring manager would be crazy to express this sentiment, no one wants to get sued for discrimination.

[CS91]

Sefira beards is definitely baloney this decade.
Taking advantage of discrimination protection is far more prevalent in other communities than it is in the Orthodox one.

Just because other communities do it too, doesn't mean it's okay for us to do it.

Wow, so you started over here: http://forums.dansdeals.com/index.php?topic=37134.0
And then you continue to thread crapping here.
If you are a self hating jew just say:
I HATE MYSELF (loud)

Not a self-hating Jew at all. I just don't think that it's right for certain people to make the rest of us who are trying to live honest lives look bad. Why is it fair for the honest ones among us to be faced with an uphill battle of proving that we're not dishonest/lazy?

Jews have been "known" that way for years, doesn't make it true. There are greedy people everywhere, there are lazy employees everywhere, there are dishonest people everywhere.

Again, just because there are people from different backgrounds/ethnicities that do similar things, it doesn't make it right. Fact is, Jews are known for these things more than other religions/races are.

[thaber]

Just because other communities do it too, doesn't mean it's okay for us to do it.

Not a self-hating Jew at all. I just don't think that it's right for certain people to make the rest of us who are trying to live honest lives look bad. Why is it fair for the honest ones among us to be faced with an uphill battle of proving that we're not dishonest/lazy?

Again, just because there are people from different backgrounds/ethnicities that do similar things, it doesn't make it right. Fact is, Jews are known for these things more than other religions/races are.

So the hiring managers you speak to at fortune 500 companies don't hire from a variety of ethnicities.
That's baloney too.

[CS91]

These are strikingly unfamiliar. As is your doom and gloom outlook of the job market for frum professionals. This is beside for the fact that a hiring manager would be crazy to express this sentiment, no one wants to get sued for discrimination.

The hiring managers that I'm quoting are either family members or close friends who trust me enough to keep what they said off the record. As for the gloom outlook of the job market for frum professionals, go visit the nearest college or law school and ask the frum Jews how they're placing compared to their non-Jewish peers. I'm not saying that frum Jews aren't getting jobs. I'm simply saying that we're having a more difficult time.

[avromie7]

Again, just because there are people from different backgrounds/ethnicities that do similar things, it doesn't make it right. Fact is, Jews are known for these things more than other religions/races are.

this is such a pathetic argument it belongs alongside the resolution claiming Israel to be the biggest violator of human rights

[avromie7]

The hiring managers that I'm quoting are either family members or close friends who trust me enough to keep what they said off the record. As for the gloom outlook of the job market for frum professionals, go visit the nearest college or law school and ask the frum Jews how they're placing compared to their non-Jewish peers. I'm not saying that frum Jews aren't getting jobs. I'm simply saying that we're having a more difficult time.

Eisav soneh l'yaakov

[CS91]

So the hiring managers you speak to at fortune 500 companies don't hire from a variety of ethnicities.
That's baloney too.

Not sure where you got that from. Never said that.

[thaber]

Not sure where you got that from. Never said that.

I said other groups are know more than OJ.  You said that doesn't make it right.  I agree.  But your point was that the job market is tough for frum Jews as a direct result so that should apply to the other ethnic groups as well

[thaber]

The hiring managers that I'm quoting are either family members or close friends who trust me enough to keep what they said off the record. As for the gloom outlook of the job market for frum professionals, go visit the nearest college or law school and ask the frum Jews how they're placing compared to their non-Jewish peers. I'm not saying that frum Jews aren't getting jobs. I'm simply saying that we're having a more difficult time.

I know chassidim with scraggly beards who had no difficulty getting a job with a white shoe law firm.  Same with other professionals.