Is It Ethical?

[CS91]

I said other groups are know more than OJ.  You said that doesn't make it right.  I agree.  But your point was that the job market is tough for frum Jews as a direct result so that should apply to the other ethnic groups as well

I agree that other groups cut corners and rely on discrimination protection, but I personally don't think that they do it more than OJ.

I know chassidim with scraggly beards who had no difficulty getting a job with a white shoe law firm.  Same with other professionals. 

I never said that frum Jews don't get hired. I just said that it can be more difficult.

[Achas Veachas]

Again, just because there are people from different backgrounds/ethnicities that do similar things, it doesn't make it right. Fact is, Jews are known for these things more than other religions/races are.

It doesn't make it right it just proves that it has nothing to do with being Frum and everything to do with being human.

[skyguy918]

The hiring managers that I'm quoting are either family members or close friends who trust me enough to keep what they said off the record. As for the gloom outlook of the job market for frum professionals, go visit the nearest college or law school and ask the frum Jews how they're placing compared to their non-Jewish peers. I'm not saying that frum Jews aren't getting jobs. I'm simply saying that we're having a more difficult time.

The answer would be that they're placing better than there peers, not worse.

I simply don't believe that the situation is as you describe, or that it's prevalent/widespread for hiring managers anywhere to reject frum candidates on the grounds you mentioned. Your vague, unverified to anyone but you, anecdotal evidence doesn't sway me. I know it's not true at my company, and the large numbers of frum professionals at big 4 and midsize account firms, major law firms, financial institutions and other companies employing professionals seems to indicate that it's not true elsewhere either.

[thaber]

I agree that other groups cut corners and rely on discrimination protection, but I personally don't think that they do it more than OJ.

in my professional experience they do

I never said that frum Jews don't get hired. I just said that it can be more difficult.

I said no difficulty. 

My main beef here is that to beat up on frum Jews in a public forum that is visited by non Jews as well,  especially when it's in a general,  not in response to something specific,  way,  is probably the greater chilul Hashem,  if your concern is actually kavod Hashem.

[Aj3042]

Do me a favor and don't fix anything for me. I know what I wrote and companies aren't just "blaming" things on certain people. What I said isn't mere speculation. It's coming from people (some of them frum) who are high up on the hiring committees at large companies/firms/banks. Jews are becoming known as people who will cut any corner they can and scam whoever crosses their path and it is unfortunate.

I'm just curious-do you think it's worse now than it's been before? I mean (frum) Jews always had hard times getting into the top top until quite recently but it's been getting better. You're saying it's getting worse at the same time?

[Achas Veachas]

I'm just curious-do you think it's worse now than it's been before? I mean (frum) Jews always had hard times getting into the top top until quite recently but it's been getting better. You're saying it's getting worse at the same time?

It's not worse, in fact it's never been better. Anyone who thinks Frum prior are having a hard time getting into top positions at these companies should try being AA for a while...

[Aj3042]

Jews have been "known" that way for years, doesn't make it true. There are greedy people everywhere, there are lazy employees everywhere, there are dishonest people everywhere.

Yes Jews have been known like this for the longest time but you got to admit there's a kernel of truth to it. Jews are smart with money, of that there's no question. In fact the existence of this site is a good indicator of that. I'm not saying it as good or bad just pointing it out. Jews know how to make money, make more money, and save money.

[CS91]

The answer would be that they're placing better than there peers, not worse.

I simply don't believe that the situation is as you describe, or that it's prevalent/widespread for hiring managers anywhere to reject frum candidates on the grounds you mentioned. Your vague, unverified to anyone but you, anecdotal evidence doesn't sway me. I know it's not true at my company, and the large numbers of frum professionals at big 4 and midsize account firms, major law firms, financial institutions and other companies employing professionals seems to indicate that it's not true elsewhere either.

Placing better?! Halevai!

Don't believe me, but I'm speaking from inside knowledge and first-hand experience. I went to college, went through recruiting season there, then went to law school, and went through the recruiting season there as well. While I personally have a job lined up (BH!), I have many frum friends who are brilliant and highly qualified who remain unemployed and are having a very difficult time finding a job. Yes, many big firms have frum employees, but the majority of them are from the older generation (I know it's relative, so for clarification purposes, I'm referring to the baby-boomer generation and above) who apparently didn't have the same attitude towards work as those of us who are younger.

Finally, and I apologize for being so blunt, but based on how your post was riddled with spelling and grammatical errors, I have a hard time believing that you have much of a connection to the large accounting/law firms and large financial institutions that you refer to. I'm a part of that world, and the things that I'm saying are unfortunately very true. I wish that they weren't.

[Aj3042]

Placing better?! Halevai!

Don't believe me, but I'm speaking from inside knowledge and first-hand experience. I went to college, went through recruiting season there, then went to law school, and went through the recruiting season there as well. While I personally have a job lined up (BH!), I have many frum friends who are brilliant and highly qualified who remain unemployed and are having a very difficult time finding a job. Yes, many big firms have frum employees, but the majority of them are from the older generation (I know it's relative, so for clarification purposes, I'm referring to the baby-boomer generation and above) who apparently didn't have the same attitude towards work as those of us who are younger.

Finally, and I apologize for being so blunt, but based on how your post was riddled with spelling and grammatical errors, I have a hard time believing that you have much of a connection to the large accounting/law firms and large financial institutions that you refer to. I'm a part of that world, and the things that I'm saying are unfortunately very true. I wish that they weren't.

Are you talking about the law market? I'm not sure that's such a good proof because it's a very tough market these days anyways.

[CS91]

I'm just curious-do you think it's worse now than it's been before? I mean (frum) Jews always had hard times getting into the top top until quite recently but it's been getting better. You're saying it's getting worse at the same time?

I think that it's been up and down. As we all know, it was near impossible to hold on to a job if you were Shomer Shabbos back in the early 90s. Then it got a lot better for a long period of time, and then started to dip back down about 10 years ago or so. Many people think that it has to do with the attitudes of different generations (i.e. baby-boomer generation was very appreciative of the fact that they were being hired compared to the the struggles that their parents and grandparents went though, and therefore did everything they possibly could to prove that they deserved their job).

[CS91]

Are you talking about the law market? I'm not sure that's such a good proof because it's a very tough market these days anyways.

Law market, as well as the accounting and banking fields. I know it's a tough market across the board these days, but when you see people who wear yarmulkas to their interviews doing significantly worse in terms of job placement compared to OJs who take them off (and therefore aren't noticeably frum during the recruiting phase), it raises eyebrows. Wouldn't you agree?

[Aj3042]

Law market, as well as the accounting and banking fields. I know it's a tough market across the board these days, but when you see people who wear yarmulkas to their interviews doing significantly worse in terms of job placement compared to OJs who take them off (and therefore aren't noticeably frum during the recruiting phase), it raises eyebrows. Wouldn't you agree?

I don't know the facts. If what you're saying is true, maybe you're right-I just don't know. You do have to admit though that there is some bias against frum Jews for other reasons (like the fact that their schedules are less flexible, etc.) that can't be avoided so keep that in mind.

[solls108]

Are you talking about the law market? I'm not sure that's such a good proof because it's a very tough market these days anyways.

Every market is tough. You will succeed in what you excel in. If you are talented at what you do, you will get a job. Markets go up, markets go down, That's life!

[Aj3042]

Every market is tough. You will succeed in what you excel in. If you are talented at what you do, you will get a job. Markets go up, markets go down, That's life!

Yep but some are tougher than others.

[solls108]

Yep but some are tougher than others.

Ya? Not every market is equal? You sure? That is a bold statement.

[koplonko]

I bought something from Ebay mistakenly and caught the mistake right away, I requested to cancel it and they were nice enough too cancel it,

The item still showed up at my door...I checked yes I got my money back

Can I sell the Item on Ebay?

I would contact the seller to inform them and and take it from there (since it concerns a Kidush hashem, it is halachically required as well. I know, wrong thread...

[solls108]

I would contact the seller to inform them and and take it from there (since it concerns a Kidush hashem, it is halachically required as well. I know, wrong thread...

It is a common occurence where they still ship the product to you, and if you have the product already, they tell you to keep it. How much was order?

[CS91]

I don't know the facts. If what you're saying is true, maybe you're right-I just don't know. You do have to admit though that there is some bias against frum Jews for other reasons (like the fact that their schedules are less flexible, etc.) that can't be avoided so keep that in mind.

Of course; you're 100% correct. But I personally think that if that was the only bias against us and we would all put in effort to make up for those reasons that can't be avoided (i.e. make up the hours that we miss on Friday on Saturday night and Sunday), the bias against us would be much less prevalent.

Ya? Not every market is equal? You sure? That is a bold statement.

Where's the sarcastic font when you need it! 

[etech0]

It is a common occurence where they still ship the product to you, and if you have the product already, they tell you to keep it. How much was order?

His question is if you have to ask

[solls108]

His question is if you have to ask

NO