Topic Wiki

This thread is to discuss whether people feel that something is unethical, not to find out what the law*/T&C says.

Any Halachic questions should be posted here.

*According to CountValentine this includes religion, but unfortunately for him, the general consensus is that religion will always be entwined in this thread.

*Hint* If you have to ask, It's most likely not ethical.
« Last edited by UKinNYS on April 13, 2021, 11:51:23 AM »

Author Topic: Is It Ethical?  (Read 563109 times)

Offline ChaimMoskowitz

  • Dansdeals Lifetime Presidential Platinum Elite
  • *********
  • Join Date: Jun 2014
  • Posts: 7232
  • Total likes: 1097
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 1
  • Gender: Female
    • View Profile
Re: Is It Ethical?
« Reply #2020 on: August 12, 2015, 07:19:20 AM »
Looked through a lot of this thread expecting for this to be discussed ad nauseum, can;t seem to find it, so I ask forgiveness for those that are bothered by the topic coming up again.

I would prefer the answer with just facts not personal views, and if you'd rather pm that would be great as well...
What are the legalities of selling points? Is it in the T&C of the contract I agreed to with each individual reward program and airline program? Are the banks/airlines makpid about not selling the miles? Are you allowed to book flights/hotels for other people without getting paid? Do you own your points/miles?

What are the mainstream heterim going around for selling points, if any?

Thank you so much in advance!
This is the ethical thread. It is not ethical to sell points/miles if the T&C's forbid it.
I just found a new supply of forks!

Offline lunatic

  • Dansdeals Presidential Platinum Elite
  • ********
  • Join Date: May 2009
  • Posts: 4459
  • Total likes: 29
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 8
    • View Profile
Re: Is It Ethical?
« Reply #2021 on: August 12, 2015, 07:20:48 AM »
This is the ethical thread. It is not ethical to sell points/miles if the T&C's forbid it.
+1 this thread is for personal views,  not legalities

Offline PutANameToIt

  • Dansdeals Bronze Elite
  • *
  • Join Date: Aug 2014
  • Posts: 45
  • Total likes: 1
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 0
    • View Profile
Re: Is It Ethical?
« Reply #2022 on: August 12, 2015, 07:47:51 AM »
This is the ethical thread. It is not ethical to sell points/miles if the T&C's forbid it.

Big if in there, as that was part of my question. And that's a blanket statement. There are many other discussions here are about things "officially" against T&C's and yet people believe the ethics are still up to discussion.

Offline PutANameToIt

  • Dansdeals Bronze Elite
  • *
  • Join Date: Aug 2014
  • Posts: 45
  • Total likes: 1
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 0
    • View Profile
Re: Is It Ethical?
« Reply #2023 on: August 12, 2015, 07:48:55 AM »
+1 this thread is for personal views,  not legalities

I'd love to actually know the facts and legalities before passing my own judgement of ethics...

Offline ChaimMoskowitz

  • Dansdeals Lifetime Presidential Platinum Elite
  • *********
  • Join Date: Jun 2014
  • Posts: 7232
  • Total likes: 1097
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 1
  • Gender: Female
    • View Profile
Re: Is It Ethical?
« Reply #2024 on: August 12, 2015, 07:55:17 AM »
I'd love to actually know the facts and legalities before passing my own judgement of ethics...
If you want the facts then just read the T&C's of each program you participate in. Just about all of them will say you can't sell the miles/points.
I just found a new supply of forks!

Offline PutANameToIt

  • Dansdeals Bronze Elite
  • *
  • Join Date: Aug 2014
  • Posts: 45
  • Total likes: 1
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 0
    • View Profile
Re: Is It Ethical?
« Reply #2025 on: August 12, 2015, 08:03:00 AM »
If you want the facts then just read the T&C's of each program you participate in. Just about all of them will say you can't sell the miles/points.

Thanks a bunch, you saved me a lot of time having to read through all the T&C's... but you said "just about all," not actually all?

Offline PutANameToIt

  • Dansdeals Bronze Elite
  • *
  • Join Date: Aug 2014
  • Posts: 45
  • Total likes: 1
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 0
    • View Profile
Re: Is It Ethical?
« Reply #2026 on: August 12, 2015, 08:05:02 AM »
Then again, you know just as well as I do that there's much more hock to this. Is there a thread that has it that I missed?

Online aygart

  • Dansdeals Lifetime 10K Presidential Platinum Elite
  • *******
  • Join Date: May 2008
  • Posts: 18386
  • Total likes: 14572
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 14
    • View Profile
    • Lower Watt Energy Brokers
  • Programs: www.lowerwatt.com
Re: Is It Ethical?
« Reply #2027 on: August 12, 2015, 10:46:09 AM »

I would prefer the answer with just facts not personal views,
Facts? In the ethics thread?:o??????:-\::)
Feelings don't care about your facts

Offline ckmk47

  • Dansdeals Lifetime Presidential Platinum Elite
  • *********
  • Join Date: Aug 2012
  • Posts: 8030
  • Total likes: 1065
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 3
  • Gender: Female
    • View Profile
  • Location: brooklyn
Re: Is It Ethical?
« Reply #2028 on: August 12, 2015, 11:00:52 AM »
Looked through a lot of this thread expecting for this to be discussed ad nauseum, can;t seem to find it, so I ask forgiveness for those that are bothered by the topic coming up again.

I would prefer the answer with just facts not personal views, and if you'd rather pm that would be great as well...
What are the legalities of selling points? Is it in the T&C of the contract I agreed to with each individual reward program and airline program? Are the banks/airlines makpid about not selling the miles? Are you allowed to book flights/hotels for other people without getting paid? Do you own your points/miles?

What are the mainstream heterim going around for selling points, if any?

Thank you so much in advance!
Although it is not illegal to sell points, it is against the T&C of the reward programs.  Since they, legally, retain ownership of the points, they can, legally, take the points away from you at will.  Look for AA shut downs for recent egregious examples. (People were left at the airport with no ticket.)  I think you are allowed to book for family and friends without getting paid.  But if you manage to be friends with the same guy, who seems to be friends with so many people who are willing to gift him his monthly business class seat to the far east, AA gets suspicious. 
As far as how frum people sell points?  Many don’t ask a Rabbi, some Rabbis let (since it’s not illegal?) and some people don’t sell on ethical grounds.

My favorite cause: cssy.org

Offline @Yehuda

  • Dansdeals Lifetime Presidential Platinum Elite
  • *********
  • Join Date: Oct 2013
  • Posts: 9696
  • Total likes: 188
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 5
  • Gender: Male
    • View Profile
Re: Is It Ethical?
« Reply #2029 on: August 12, 2015, 11:10:13 AM »
Looked through a lot of this thread expecting for this to be discussed ad nauseum, can;t seem to find it, so I ask forgiveness for those that are bothered by the topic coming up again.

I would prefer the answer with just facts not personal views, and if you'd rather pm that would be great as well...
What are the legalities of selling points? Is it in the T&C of the contract I agreed to with each individual reward program and airline program? Are the banks/airlines makpid about not selling the miles? Are you allowed to book flights/hotels for other people without getting paid? Do you own your points/miles?

What are the mainstream heterim going around for selling points, if any?

Thank you so much in advance!
Ethics are usually different from one person to the next, which is why it's hard to ask for facts in the Ethics thread. The next thing you asked is the legality of selling points. Again, discussions in this thread stay away from legal and halachic issues. But I'll answer that anyway - it is not illegal to sell points. A quick Google search on the matter will find you many articles on the topic.

I'm under the impression that every program's T&C says you cannot sell your miles, but if CM said "almost" all, perhaps not all actually say that. The banks/airlines are definitely makpid on selling miles, which is why you often hear of people getting shut down and their miles forfeited. Some programs check up on this more often/in depth than others, but they all don't "like" it.

I believe the answer to booking for someone else without getting paid is - yes, you can. However, even if you can prove you didn't get paid, I'm sure it would not be a fun experience getting caught. Finally, from my research, you do not own your miles.

Don't know the heterim; my Rabbi said, "No." ::)

Offline ChaimMoskowitz

  • Dansdeals Lifetime Presidential Platinum Elite
  • *********
  • Join Date: Jun 2014
  • Posts: 7232
  • Total likes: 1097
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 1
  • Gender: Female
    • View Profile
Re: Is It Ethical?
« Reply #2030 on: August 12, 2015, 01:14:44 PM »
I am not familiar with many programs out there so I will defer to the experts if "ALL" say you can't sell miles/points.
I just found a new supply of forks!

Offline Cheesecake

  • Dansdeals Platinum Elite + Lifetime Silver Elite
  • *****
  • Join Date: May 2015
  • Posts: 547
  • Total likes: 38
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 0
    • View Profile
Re: Is It Ethical?
« Reply #2031 on: September 06, 2015, 03:20:39 AM »
This is the ethical thread. It is not ethical to sell points/miles if the T&C's forbid it.
Even if the courts have determined that the consumer is not bound by thisT/C?

Offline ChaimMoskowitz

  • Dansdeals Lifetime Presidential Platinum Elite
  • *********
  • Join Date: Jun 2014
  • Posts: 7232
  • Total likes: 1097
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 1
  • Gender: Female
    • View Profile
Re: Is It Ethical?
« Reply #2032 on: September 06, 2015, 05:43:52 AM »
Even if the courts have determined that the consumer is not bound by thisT/C?
No
I just found a new supply of forks!

Online aygart

  • Dansdeals Lifetime 10K Presidential Platinum Elite
  • *******
  • Join Date: May 2008
  • Posts: 18386
  • Total likes: 14572
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 14
    • View Profile
    • Lower Watt Energy Brokers
  • Programs: www.lowerwatt.com
Re: Is It Ethical?
« Reply #2033 on: September 06, 2015, 08:15:16 AM »
No
no meaning not even if our no meaning it is still not ethical.
Feelings don't care about your facts

Offline ChaimMoskowitz

  • Dansdeals Lifetime Presidential Platinum Elite
  • *********
  • Join Date: Jun 2014
  • Posts: 7232
  • Total likes: 1097
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 1
  • Gender: Female
    • View Profile
Re: Is It Ethical?
« Reply #2034 on: September 06, 2015, 08:27:21 AM »
no meaning not even if our no meaning it is still not ethical.
No meaning it would be ethical.
I just found a new supply of forks!

Offline Cheesecake

  • Dansdeals Platinum Elite + Lifetime Silver Elite
  • *****
  • Join Date: May 2015
  • Posts: 547
  • Total likes: 38
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 0
    • View Profile
Re: Is It Ethical?
« Reply #2035 on: September 06, 2015, 08:54:50 AM »
No meaning it would be ethical.
The posek I asked before selling my miles said it was muttar because according to his information, there was such a ruling. Are his facts wrong?

Offline ChaimMoskowitz

  • Dansdeals Lifetime Presidential Platinum Elite
  • *********
  • Join Date: Jun 2014
  • Posts: 7232
  • Total likes: 1097
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 1
  • Gender: Female
    • View Profile
Re: Is It Ethical?
« Reply #2036 on: September 06, 2015, 09:02:08 AM »
The posek I asked before selling my miles said it was muttar because according to his information, there was such a ruling. Are his facts wrong?
Can only state how I view things. I have no idea if there was such a ruling.
I just found a new supply of forks!

Offline Cheesecake

  • Dansdeals Platinum Elite + Lifetime Silver Elite
  • *****
  • Join Date: May 2015
  • Posts: 547
  • Total likes: 38
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 0
    • View Profile
Re: Is It Ethical?
« Reply #2037 on: September 06, 2015, 09:03:21 AM »
Can only state how I view things. I have no idea if there was such a ruling.
Fair enough.

Offline Ergel

  • Dansdeals Lifetime 10K Presidential Platinum Elite
  • *******
  • Join Date: Jun 2010
  • Posts: 13070
  • Total likes: 905
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 3
    • View Profile
Re: Is It Ethical?
« Reply #2038 on: September 06, 2015, 09:05:55 AM »
The posek I asked before selling my miles said it was muttar because according to his information, there was such a ruling. Are his facts wrong?
A ruling that what?
Life isn't about checking the boxes. Nobody cares.

Offline Cheesecake

  • Dansdeals Platinum Elite + Lifetime Silver Elite
  • *****
  • Join Date: May 2015
  • Posts: 547
  • Total likes: 38
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 0
    • View Profile
Re: Is It Ethical?
« Reply #2039 on: September 06, 2015, 09:07:26 AM »
That it is legal to sell miles.