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This thread is to discuss whether people feel that something is unethical, not to find out what the law*/T&C says.

Any Halachic questions should be posted here.

*According to CountValentine this includes religion, but unfortunately for him, the general consensus is that religion will always be entwined in this thread.

*Hint* If you have to ask, It's most likely not ethical.
« Last edited by UKinNYS on April 13, 2021, 11:51:23 AM »

Author Topic: Is It Ethical?  (Read 347598 times)

Offline ChapsTheMatzav

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Re: Is It Ethical?
« Reply #2640 on: April 29, 2021, 12:31:12 AM »
Please don't ask me how......I will not reveal the trick, but I fly about 3 firsts (Europe/TLV etc.) every year out of it, I am not overly abusing the system, but I still feel guilty.
Probably cheating.
Whether you think you can or you think you cannot, you're right.

Offline ChapsTheMatzav

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Re: Is It Ethical?
« Reply #2641 on: April 29, 2021, 12:33:10 AM »
I bought something using a cash back portal and got some money credited to my account. my order then got cancelled. 3 months later my cash gets unlocked and is now able to be cashed out....is it stealing or unethical to take it? or too bad on them?
IMHO too bad on them.
Whether you think you can or you think you cannot, you're right.

Offline ChapsTheMatzav

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Re: Is It Ethical?
« Reply #2642 on: April 29, 2021, 12:33:34 AM »
To add to the discussion.
When Amazon cancels and order, do you ask for compensation?  This cash back can be your compensation.
NO Shaycis.
Whether you think you can or you think you cannot, you're right.

Offline ChapsTheMatzav

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Re: Is It Ethical?
« Reply #2643 on: April 29, 2021, 12:34:01 AM »
Would you tell Amex that you tried to return something on day 85, when a) you never attempted to return it or b) tried on day 91/95, when the store has a 30/45 return policy?
No, I work for my $
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Offline haltkup

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Re: Is It Ethical?
« Reply #2644 on: April 29, 2021, 12:52:39 AM »
Most hospitals send to an internal collection department first and they are fully capable of negotiating a significant amount off.
Is it still accurate? I was under the assumption that with the adoption of affordable care act, insurance deductibles/copays can not be negotiated even if it goes to collections.

Offline lubaby

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Re: Is It Ethical?
« Reply #2645 on: April 29, 2021, 01:43:56 AM »
I bought something using a cash back portal and got some money credited to my account. my order then got cancelled. 3 months later my cash gets unlocked and is now able to be cashed out....is it stealing or unethical to take it? or too bad on them?
IMHO too bad on them.
Just donít be like these guys.
https://archives.fbi.gov/archives/seattle/press-releases/2012/brothers-who-defrauded-nordstrom-with-online-reward-scheme-plead-guilty-to-wire-fraud

Offline Sam Finkelstein

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Re: Is It Ethical?
« Reply #2646 on: May 09, 2021, 09:49:21 AM »
What differences do you think there are between these three, and do you think they're ethical?

  • Taking maternity/family leave benefits while you continue to work
  • Not reporting all your income
  • Playing schtick to sneak an overweight carry-on
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Offline drosenberg88429

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Re: Is It Ethical?
« Reply #2647 on: May 09, 2021, 10:10:19 AM »
What differences do you think there are between these three, and do you think they're ethical?

  • Taking maternity/family leave benefits while you continue to work
  • Not reporting all your income
  • Playing schtick to sneak an overweight carry-on

Overweight carry on - not lying explicitly, not directly costing airline loss/taking money from them

Not reporting all income - debatable if lying explicitly (omission is not enunciation of falsehood/perjury), not directly taking money

Maternity leave benefits-assuming you're being paid, the pay and claiming of benefits is contingent on not working. Same thing as claiming unemployment while being gainfully employed. There is explicit falsehood and direct receipt/taking of money.

Offline Sam Finkelstein

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Re: Is It Ethical?
« Reply #2648 on: May 09, 2021, 10:46:20 AM »
Like your analysis. You didnít actually weigh in on what you think is ethical, though.

Iíd add that underreporting income doesnít only help avoid paying tax, it can also make one eligible for government benefits they wouldnít be eligible for had they reported it. In that case, it would be the same as claiming maternity/family/unemployment while actually gainfully employed.

Additionally, once youíre bringing unemployment into the mix, what do you think about claiming unemployment year-round for a seasonal job? Youíre technically not gainfully employed during that time, but itís not like youíre losing anything.
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Offline CountValentine

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Re: Is It Ethical?
« Reply #2649 on: May 09, 2021, 11:37:59 AM »
What differences do you think there are between these three, and do you think they're ethical?

  • Taking maternity/family leave benefits while you continue to work
  • Not reporting all your income
  • Playing schtick to sneak an overweight carry-on
All three are highly unethical and 1/2 probably committing a crime.
You're so far up Trump's a** you can see Giuliani's feet.  HT Baruch

Offline Sam Finkelstein

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Re: Is It Ethical?
« Reply #2650 on: May 09, 2021, 02:19:22 PM »
All three are highly unethical and 1/2 probably committing a crime.

I think 2/3 are committing a crime.

The carry-on question isn't so cut-and-dried IMHO. Even if they caught you, I would say the average person would sooner throw out some stuff than cough up $100 for a second checked bag. So it's not like the airline is making money in any case.
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Offline yfr bachur

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Re: Is It Ethical?
« Reply #2651 on: May 10, 2021, 11:05:53 AM »
What differences do you think there are between these three, and do you think they're ethical?

  • Taking maternity/family leave benefits while you continue to work
  • Not reporting all your income
  • Playing schtick to sneak an overweight carry-on

So how about a freelancer, - who does not decide when work opportunities will present themselves - is on maternity leave, and is offered some work and can bill after the maternity leave ends?
There's no guarantee that she'll have any work then...
Does it depend what kind of work she does?
What about if she's in a field where some work is paid and some is volunteer?
What if she has a consistent customer, and she risks losing the customer if she turns down the work during maternity leave?
Is it the work during leave that is unethical, or the taking money for it?
for a consistent customer, can she not bill for work done during leave, and raise her rate for work done afterward?
(sorry, it just happens to apply to my situation, and these are some of my thoughts)

With regards to the carry-on it can depend on what shtick you play. Not presenting everything is very different from wearing 6 pairs of pants and stuffing your hat with your lunch while wearing your talis and tefilin.
(I happen to think that as long as you dont put them back until you're on the plane, you did nothing wrong. the carry on fit all the conditions, you just wore the weight on to the plane)
« Last Edit: May 10, 2021, 11:19:54 AM by yfr bachur »

Offline Yehudaa

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Re: Is It Ethical?
« Reply #2652 on: May 13, 2021, 01:19:06 PM »
I placed an order with Charles Tyrwhitt in November for a bunch of shirts in 2 different fits, and then returned the ones that didn't fit me. Now I just got an email from them saying that 1 shirt was missing from my return, and they're asking me to call them with my cc to pay for the one that was missing as they refunded all the ones that I had said I'd return. It's possible that I kept 1 shirt by accident because it was already open, but I don't know. I would generally assume they're correct but I'm not 100% sure because it's been 5 months.

I think the right thing to do is to call them and pay for it, but part of me says that they're at fault for following up more than 5 months after I made the return, at a point when I have no recollection of what happened. Had they followed up sooner I likely would've been able to clarify on what happened on my end, but there's no way I can now as I have many shirts in different sizes/fits and I can't figure out if I have the one that they're claiming that I have...

Thoughts?

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Re: Is It Ethical?
« Reply #2653 on: May 13, 2021, 01:22:20 PM »
I placed an order with Charles Tyrwhitt in November for a bunch of shirts in 2 different fits, and then returned the ones that didn't fit me. Now I just got an email from them saying that 1 shirt was missing from my return, and they're asking me to call them with my cc to pay for the one that was missing as they refunded all the ones that I had said I'd return. It's possible that I kept 1 shirt by accident because it was already open, but I don't know. I would generally assume they're correct but I'm not 100% sure because it's been 5 months.

I think the right thing to do is to call them and pay for it, but part of me says that they're at fault for following up more than 5 months after I made the return, at a point when I have no recollection of what happened. Had they followed up sooner I likely would've been able to clarify on what happened on my end, but there's no way I can now as I have many shirts in different sizes/fits and I can't figure out if I have the one that they're claiming that I have...

Thoughts?

Call them up and see if you can work out a compromise (partial payment, store credit, etc.).
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Offline Agoldsc1

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Re: Is It Ethical?
« Reply #2654 on: May 13, 2021, 01:44:24 PM »
I placed an order with Charles Tyrwhitt in November for a bunch of shirts in 2 different fits, and then returned the ones that didn't fit me. Now I just got an email from them saying that 1 shirt was missing from my return, and they're asking me to call them with my cc to pay for the one that was missing as they refunded all the ones that I had said I'd return. It's possible that I kept 1 shirt by accident because it was already open, but I don't know. I would generally assume they're correct but I'm not 100% sure because it's been 5 months.

I think the right thing to do is to call them and pay for it, but part of me says that they're at fault for following up more than 5 months after I made the return, at a point when I have no recollection of what happened. Had they followed up sooner I likely would've been able to clarify on what happened on my end, but there's no way I can now as I have many shirts in different sizes/fits and I can't figure out if I have the one that they're claiming that I have...

Thoughts?

I think that if you genuinely have a reasonable doubt as to whether you included it or not, then you would be correct in refusing to pay due to their delay.

BTW, that's one of the reasons for the Statute of Limitations in law. It's not fair to expect someone to defend themselves after too much time has passed as memories and evidence fade. My point is that your logic is valid. 

Offline CountValentine

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Re: Is It Ethical?
« Reply #2655 on: May 13, 2021, 03:16:59 PM »
I placed an order with Charles Tyrwhitt in November for a bunch of shirts in 2 different fits, and then returned the ones that didn't fit me. Now I just got an email from them saying that 1 shirt was missing from my return, and they're asking me to call them with my cc to pay for the one that was missing as they refunded all the ones that I had said I'd return. It's possible that I kept 1 shirt by accident because it was already open, but I don't know. I would generally assume they're correct but I'm not 100% sure because it's been 5 months.

I think the right thing to do is to call them and pay for it, but part of me says that they're at fault for following up more than 5 months after I made the return, at a point when I have no recollection of what happened. Had they followed up sooner I likely would've been able to clarify on what happened on my end, but there's no way I can now as I have many shirts in different sizes/fits and I can't figure out if I have the one that they're claiming that I have...

Thoughts?
One of the very few posts in this thread that is not cut and dry. I would trust your own judgement on what to do.
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Online Yehuda57

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Re: Is It Ethical?
« Reply #2656 on: June 02, 2021, 10:07:31 AM »
Last year I bought 4 tickets on SAA from JFK-JNB for Pesach. Then there was this thing called Covid-19 and all flights were canceled, and I requested a refund for the flights which did not even take off even if we would have wanted to travel. They did not respond to the refund requests (by phone and email) and so I disputed the CC charges and was refunded in full.

More than a year later they finally responded to the email, and are offering me a refund in the form of an SAA travel voucher. Now, it is entirely possible that after I fill in the voucher request form they sent they will pick up that the charges were refunded. It's also SAA, which has the competence level of an average journalist reporting on frum Jews, so more than likely not. It is also entirely possible that SAA will never fly from JFK again and I will have no use for the voucher.

I think applying for the voucher is kind of stealing, but I'm being told by some I'm crazy and I should absolutely fill out the form, and if they send me a voucher, it's on them.

Update: I got an email today saying they see there was a chargeback on the ticket and so they are "cancelling the voucher" they issued. I didn't request the voucher!

It's a wonder they are bankrupt.
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Re: Is It Ethical?
« Reply #2657 on: July 04, 2021, 06:14:12 PM »
I was going to post this post in this thread, but instead of hijacking an active thread, I'm posting it here. Please see there for context of this question:

This is not a new question, rather it comes up very often. Someone posts a "Selling product for $x", and you know that the product is readily available for cheaper on a certain website.

Are you allowed/obligated to post it, or are you messing up his potential sale?
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Offline S209

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Re: Is It Ethical?
« Reply #2658 on: July 04, 2021, 06:28:34 PM »
I was going to post this post in this thread, but instead of hijacking an active thread, I'm posting it here. Please see there for context of this question:

This is not a new question, rather it comes up very often. Someone posts a "Selling product for $x", and you know that the product is readily available for cheaper on a certain website.

Are you allowed/obligated to post it, or are you messing up his potential sale?
I would assume itís the right thing to do, though obligated is a strong word.
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Online Happyguy

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Re: Is It Ethical?
« Reply #2659 on: July 04, 2021, 06:30:36 PM »