Topic Wiki

This thread is to discuss whether people feel that something is unethical, not to find out what the law*/T&C says.

Any Halachic questions should be posted here.

*According to CountValentine this includes religion, but unfortunately for him, the general consensus is that religion will always be entwined in this thread.

*Hint* If you have to ask, It's most likely not ethical.
« Last edited by UKinNYS on April 13, 2021, 11:51:23 AM »

Author Topic: Is It Ethical?  (Read 355750 times)

Offline Moishebatchy

  • Dansdeals Lifetime Presidential Platinum Elite
  • *********
  • Join Date: Jun 2011
  • Posts: 7281
  • Total likes: 128
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 23
    • View Profile
  • Location: Jerusalem
  • Programs: Arzei Makolet Platinum, Yossi's Makolet Silver, Yesh! Gold, Rav Kav Dirt
Re: Is It Ethical?
« Reply #440 on: October 04, 2012, 06:25:19 PM »
If asked you should tell them the amount you are charging.

Disagree.

It's one thing to argue whether the person should know or not IF you are making money. But even if they do, it's none of their business how much. Do you ask your grocer how much he's making on that bag of sugar you're buying?

Offline HelpMe

  • Dansdeals Presidential Platinum Elite
  • ********
  • Join Date: Aug 2011
  • Posts: 3498
  • Total likes: 36
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 1
    • View Profile
Re: Is It Ethical?
« Reply #441 on: October 04, 2012, 06:26:23 PM »
But IYO, one needn't affirmatively say so outright?
I do deals with members all the time. Some members there is no commission involved at all. Some deals commission is involved and disclosed. Other deals commission is in involved and not disclosed. I am always up front when asked and give a straight answer. I believe I am being ethical, honest and it has worked for many years.
"Elvis Has Left The Building"

Offline HelpMe

  • Dansdeals Presidential Platinum Elite
  • ********
  • Join Date: Aug 2011
  • Posts: 3498
  • Total likes: 36
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 1
    • View Profile
Re: Is It Ethical?
« Reply #442 on: October 04, 2012, 06:28:43 PM »
But even if they do, it's none of their business how much. Do you ask your grocer how much he's making on that bag of sugar you're buying?
If the sugar was 1k/pound then yes I would ask. Would you buy a car without trying to find what the dealers cost was?
"Elvis Has Left The Building"

Offline meshugener

  • Dansdeals Lifetime Presidential Platinum Elite
  • *********
  • Join Date: Feb 2012
  • Posts: 7079
  • Total likes: 52
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 4
  • Gender: Female
    • View Profile
  • Location: DDF
  • Programs: Amex Platinum, Chase Freedom 10X10 Exclusives, Avis Presidents Club, National Executive, Hertz 5 Star, Hilton Gold, Accor Platinum, Hyatt Platinum, Marriott Silver, SPG Gold, Club Carlson Gold
Re: Is It Ethical?
« Reply #443 on: October 04, 2012, 06:30:22 PM »
Whom are you guys trying to please here? Your hearts? Your ego?
I simply don't get it.
Love me or hate me. I still love you.

Offline HelpMe

  • Dansdeals Presidential Platinum Elite
  • ********
  • Join Date: Aug 2011
  • Posts: 3498
  • Total likes: 36
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 1
    • View Profile
Re: Is It Ethical?
« Reply #444 on: October 04, 2012, 06:36:31 PM »
I simply don't get it.
Some day you might understand young grasshopper.
"Elvis Has Left The Building"

Offline Ergel

  • Dansdeals Lifetime 10K Presidential Platinum Elite
  • *******
  • Join Date: Jun 2010
  • Posts: 12775
  • Total likes: 866
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 3
    • View Profile
Re: Re: Is It Ethical?
« Reply #445 on: October 04, 2012, 06:39:37 PM »
Some day you might understand young grasshopper.
I doubt it.
There is a din of V'asisa hayashar v i'hatov. A person has achiyuv to be honest and ethical. If you don't understand that I would recommend people to stay as far away from you as possible.
Life isn't about checking the boxes. Nobody cares.

Offline meshugener

  • Dansdeals Lifetime Presidential Platinum Elite
  • *********
  • Join Date: Feb 2012
  • Posts: 7079
  • Total likes: 52
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 4
  • Gender: Female
    • View Profile
  • Location: DDF
  • Programs: Amex Platinum, Chase Freedom 10X10 Exclusives, Avis Presidents Club, National Executive, Hertz 5 Star, Hilton Gold, Accor Platinum, Hyatt Platinum, Marriott Silver, SPG Gold, Club Carlson Gold
Re: Is It Ethical?
« Reply #446 on: October 04, 2012, 06:42:50 PM »
I'm too greedy to get it.
Love me or hate me. I still love you.

Offline HelpMe

  • Dansdeals Presidential Platinum Elite
  • ********
  • Join Date: Aug 2011
  • Posts: 3498
  • Total likes: 36
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 1
    • View Profile
Re: Re: Is It Ethical?
« Reply #447 on: October 04, 2012, 06:43:13 PM »
There is a din of V'asisa hayashar v i'hatov. A person has achiyuv to be honest and ethical. If you don't understand that I would recommend people to stay as far away from you as possible.
Anyone want to help this poor soul out with a translation?
"Elvis Has Left The Building"

Offline HelpMe

  • Dansdeals Presidential Platinum Elite
  • ********
  • Join Date: Aug 2011
  • Posts: 3498
  • Total likes: 36
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 1
    • View Profile
Re: Is It Ethical?
« Reply #448 on: October 04, 2012, 06:43:45 PM »
I'm too greedy to get it.
Hopefully that will pass some day.
"Elvis Has Left The Building"

Offline AJK

  • Dansdeals Lifetime 20K Presidential Platinum Elite
  • ********
  • Join Date: Jun 2011
  • Posts: 25483
  • Total likes: 466
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 15
  • Gender: Male
    • View Profile
  • Programs: United Concierge Key; Delta Global Services; American Chairman; US Airways 1K; Hilton Sapphire; Hyatt Tritium; Marriott Californium; Starwood Kryptonium; Hertz Plutonium; National Adamantium, Avis Executive Proactanium
Re: Re: Is It Ethical?
« Reply #449 on: October 04, 2012, 06:57:11 PM »
Anyone want to help this poor soul out with a translation?

"A person has to do the thing that is straight (ethical?) and good."
2015: 116K bkd | 1.6M brnd | F: OZ,NH,AA,EK | J: UA,CA,TK,DL,TN,AF,VA | LIH,NRT,ROR,PEK,CNS,BOB,MEL,TLV & Pacific Hopper

Offline AJK

  • Dansdeals Lifetime 20K Presidential Platinum Elite
  • ********
  • Join Date: Jun 2011
  • Posts: 25483
  • Total likes: 466
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 15
  • Gender: Male
    • View Profile
  • Programs: United Concierge Key; Delta Global Services; American Chairman; US Airways 1K; Hilton Sapphire; Hyatt Tritium; Marriott Californium; Starwood Kryptonium; Hertz Plutonium; National Adamantium, Avis Executive Proactanium
Re: Is It Ethical?
« Reply #450 on: October 04, 2012, 07:05:13 PM »
So, if I'm understanding the consensus:

- If person B's role was not made clear (friend/gratis vs. broker), as long as Person A has not been misled to believe B's role is that of friend, Person B can charge commission even without disclosing.

- If asked by Person A, B should disclose that (not specifically how much) he's making a commission.

Anyone disagree?
2015: 116K bkd | 1.6M brnd | F: OZ,NH,AA,EK | J: UA,CA,TK,DL,TN,AF,VA | LIH,NRT,ROR,PEK,CNS,BOB,MEL,TLV & Pacific Hopper

Offline AJK

  • Dansdeals Lifetime 20K Presidential Platinum Elite
  • ********
  • Join Date: Jun 2011
  • Posts: 25483
  • Total likes: 466
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 15
  • Gender: Male
    • View Profile
  • Programs: United Concierge Key; Delta Global Services; American Chairman; US Airways 1K; Hilton Sapphire; Hyatt Tritium; Marriott Californium; Starwood Kryptonium; Hertz Plutonium; National Adamantium, Avis Executive Proactanium
Re: Is It Ethical?
« Reply #451 on: October 04, 2012, 07:08:33 PM »
Another hypothetical:

Person A knows absolutely nothing with regard to market rates for miles.

Is there an ethical floor under which Person B should not buy A's miles due to his lack of familiarity?

If so, how much? Why?
2015: 116K bkd | 1.6M brnd | F: OZ,NH,AA,EK | J: UA,CA,TK,DL,TN,AF,VA | LIH,NRT,ROR,PEK,CNS,BOB,MEL,TLV & Pacific Hopper

Offline Ergel

  • Dansdeals Lifetime 10K Presidential Platinum Elite
  • *******
  • Join Date: Jun 2010
  • Posts: 12775
  • Total likes: 866
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 3
    • View Profile
Re: Re: Is It Ethical?
« Reply #452 on: October 04, 2012, 07:09:58 PM »
So, if I'm understanding the consensus:

- If person B's role was not made clear (friend/gratis vs. broker), as long as Person A has not been misled to believe B's role is that of friend, Person B can charge commission even without disclosing.

- If asked by Person A, B should disclose that (not specifically how much) he's making a commission.

Anyone disagree?
Definitely agree with part b
A I think depends on how it's formulated. If B is selling A's miles (and not buying A's miles and reselling) then I don't see how B could not disclose he is taking something.
Life isn't about checking the boxes. Nobody cares.

Offline HelpMe

  • Dansdeals Presidential Platinum Elite
  • ********
  • Join Date: Aug 2011
  • Posts: 3498
  • Total likes: 36
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 1
    • View Profile
Re: Is It Ethical?
« Reply #453 on: October 04, 2012, 07:12:57 PM »
Another hypothetical:

Person A knows absolutely nothing with regard to market rates for miles.

Is there an ethical floor under which Person B should not buy A's miles due to his lack of familiarity?

If so, how much? Why?
I had a feeling this one was coming. Now we are getting into the area if one is taking advantage of another person.
"Elvis Has Left The Building"

Offline Moishebatchy

  • Dansdeals Lifetime Presidential Platinum Elite
  • *********
  • Join Date: Jun 2011
  • Posts: 7281
  • Total likes: 128
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 23
    • View Profile
  • Location: Jerusalem
  • Programs: Arzei Makolet Platinum, Yossi's Makolet Silver, Yesh! Gold, Rav Kav Dirt
Re: Is It Ethical?
« Reply #454 on: October 05, 2012, 07:50:06 AM »
Another hypothetical:

Person A knows absolutely nothing with regard to market rates for miles.

Is there an ethical floor under which Person B should not buy A's miles due to his lack of familiarity?

If so, how much? Why?
Yes, but it's hard to say exactly what the amount is.

I'm sure we've all heard the stories of the shysters who get people signed up for the Amex Plat (netting them a referral bonus), give them a paltry 1 cpp for the ensuing MR, and keep the $200 airline credits. And I'm sure we can all agree that is highly unethical, right?

So we know there is a line - the problem is, where do we draw it?

Offline AJK

  • Dansdeals Lifetime 20K Presidential Platinum Elite
  • ********
  • Join Date: Jun 2011
  • Posts: 25483
  • Total likes: 466
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 15
  • Gender: Male
    • View Profile
  • Programs: United Concierge Key; Delta Global Services; American Chairman; US Airways 1K; Hilton Sapphire; Hyatt Tritium; Marriott Californium; Starwood Kryptonium; Hertz Plutonium; National Adamantium, Avis Executive Proactanium
Re: Is It Ethical?
« Reply #455 on: October 05, 2012, 11:08:35 AM »
As devil's advocate, why would even that be "highly unethical?"

These people created value where none existed before.
2015: 116K bkd | 1.6M brnd | F: OZ,NH,AA,EK | J: UA,CA,TK,DL,TN,AF,VA | LIH,NRT,ROR,PEK,CNS,BOB,MEL,TLV & Pacific Hopper

Offline Name Changed

  • Dansdeals Presidential Platinum Elite
  • ********
  • Join Date: Sep 2011
  • Posts: 4846
  • Total likes: 5
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 13
    • View Profile
  • Location: Lakewood
  • Programs: Avis Presidents Club, National Executive Elite, Hertz Presidents Circle, Sixt Platinum, SPG Gold, eBay Platinum
Re: Is It Ethical?
« Reply #456 on: October 05, 2012, 02:35:10 PM »
As devil's advocate, why would even that be "highly unethical?"

These people created value where none existed before.
Its not that value is created, there always was that potential value, but it was just not know to them...

If like the typical Arab Shuck, where they try to sell you something worth pennies for a high cost. (this is just the opposite) but they are fooling you to believe that giving you its true value.

(if they are offering you a service, thats a whole different story)

So, if I'm understanding the consensus:

- If person B's role was not made clear (friend/gratis vs. broker), as long as Person A has not been misled to believe B's role is that of friend, Person B can charge commission even without disclosing.

- If asked by Person A, B should disclose that (not specifically how much) he's making a commission.

Anyone disagree?
I actually agree with this.

Offline AJK

  • Dansdeals Lifetime 20K Presidential Platinum Elite
  • ********
  • Join Date: Jun 2011
  • Posts: 25483
  • Total likes: 466
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 15
  • Gender: Male
    • View Profile
  • Programs: United Concierge Key; Delta Global Services; American Chairman; US Airways 1K; Hilton Sapphire; Hyatt Tritium; Marriott Californium; Starwood Kryptonium; Hertz Plutonium; National Adamantium, Avis Executive Proactanium
Re: Is It Ethical?
« Reply #457 on: October 05, 2012, 02:42:37 PM »
Its not that value is created, there always was that potential value, but it was just not know to them...

If like the typical Arab Shuck, where they try to sell you something worth pennies for a high cost. (this is just the opposite) but they are fooling you to believe that giving you its true value.

(if they are offering you a service, thats a whole different story)

Isn't that (one of) the definitions of value?

If you didn't know that you could turn your garden gnome's into gold, and I came and did it for you in exchange for half the price of the gold, that's not creating value?
2015: 116K bkd | 1.6M brnd | F: OZ,NH,AA,EK | J: UA,CA,TK,DL,TN,AF,VA | LIH,NRT,ROR,PEK,CNS,BOB,MEL,TLV & Pacific Hopper

Offline Saver2000

  • Dansdeals Lifetime Presidential Platinum Elite
  • *********
  • Join Date: Apr 2011
  • Posts: 7637
  • Total likes: 26
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 0
    • View Profile
Re: Is It Ethical?
« Reply #458 on: October 05, 2012, 02:44:30 PM »
Isn't that (one of) the definitions of value?

If you didn't know that you could turn your garden gnome's into gold, and I came and did it for you in exchange for half the price of the gold, that's not creating value?
+1

Offline shmuelb

  • Dansdeals Platinum Elite + Lifetime Silver Elite
  • *****
  • Join Date: Mar 2011
  • Posts: 732
  • Total likes: 4
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 0
  • Gender: Male
    • View Profile
  • Location: Israel
  • Programs: Amex Plat, AAdvantage, Elal Matmid, Southwest, Delta Silver Medallion Skymiles, Hertz #1 Gold 5 Star, National Emerald Club Executive.
Re: Is It Ethical?
« Reply #459 on: October 09, 2012, 09:19:23 AM »
I think it is a shaila of ona'a or mekach ta'os. If you are paying 1/6 less than market value without telling this uninformed person, you were oiver ona'a and lechaoira also oiver lifnei iver.

The latter would also apply with the first q of selling someone else's miles. The difference between 1.9 and 2.0 is less than 1/6 so I think it would not be ona'a. This is not based on how much you are personally getting for the miles, rather market value It may be that points/miles have no defineable market value, like karka.
siyag lachachma :-)