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This thread is to discuss whether people feel that something is unethical, not to find out what the law*/T&C says.

Any Halachic questions should be posted here.

*According to CountValentine this includes religion, but unfortunately for him, the general consensus is that religion will always be entwined in this thread.

*Hint* If you have to ask, It's most likely not ethical.
« Last edited by UKinNYS on April 13, 2021, 11:51:23 AM »

Author Topic: Is It Ethical?  (Read 556246 times)

Offline CountValentine

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Re: Is It Ethical?
« Reply #860 on: April 21, 2013, 05:23:54 PM »
I think the onus is on you to start a thread what are ethics...
No need for a new thread.

eth·i·cal
1. pertaining to or dealing with morals or the principles of morality; pertaining to right and wrong in conduct.
2. being in accordance with the rules or standards for right conduct or practice, especially the standards of a profession: It was not considered ethical for physicians to advertise.

If you want to make this about religion, please name one major religion that would approve of what goes on here or any deals/miles/points/finance forum?
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Offline jj1000

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Re: Is It Ethical?
« Reply #861 on: April 21, 2013, 05:26:28 PM »
No need for a new thread.

eth·i·cal
1. pertaining to or dealing with morals or the principles of morality; pertaining to right and wrong in conduct.
2. being in accordance with the rules or standards for right conduct or practice, especially the standards of a profession: It was not considered ethical for physicians to advertise.

If you want to make this about religion, please name one major religion that would approve of what goes on here or any deals/miles/points/finance forum?
I am honestly lost. Those 2 definitions fit just fine in regards to the fact that religion defines morality.

And not sure if you realized but throughout this thread people have been debating whether their religion allows what goes on here or not...

We may be agreeing here you just don't know it. i.e. You are missing the point of view from where people are coming from in this thread, who believe ethics and their religion are one and the same.
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Offline CountValentine

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Re: Is It Ethical?
« Reply #862 on: April 21, 2013, 05:33:05 PM »
I am honestly lost. Those 2 definitions fit just fine in regards to the fact that religion defines morality.

And not sure if you realized but throughout this thread people have been debating whether their religion allows what goes on here or not...
I think we spent 10-20 pages on this before. In your eyes religion defines morality. What about someone that has no religion? Ethics and religion are not the same.

On your second point they can debate all they want. What religion says it is OK to lie about your income on an app just to get a bonus? Or pretend you have a business to just get the bonus?
« Last Edit: April 21, 2013, 05:36:18 PM by CountValentine »
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Offline CountValentine

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Re: Is It Ethical?
« Reply #863 on: April 21, 2013, 05:35:37 PM »
You are missing the point of view from where people are coming from in this thread, who believe ethics and their religion are one and the same.
Then they are in the wrong thread. This thread is to discuss the ethics of a deal so it does not happen in every thread.

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Offline jj1000

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Re: Is It Ethical?
« Reply #864 on: April 21, 2013, 05:41:28 PM »
In your eyes religion defines morality. What about someone that has no religion? Ethics and religion are not the same.
That is a very poor logic line. It is like saying "You believe the wall is white. What about people that don't believe the wall is white? The wall is not white."

I believe ethics is the same as religion because my religion defines my ethics. To someone with out religion, religion does not define his ethics. Therefore to some people Ethics and religion are the same thing and to others they are not the same thing.

Logical reasoning 101 :P

(Let's do one step at a time. If you do agree ethics and religion are the same for me and many on here you can feel free to ask what everyone's opinion about the CC application scenario is...)
« Last Edit: April 21, 2013, 05:46:01 PM by jj1000 »
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Offline Achas Veachas

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Re: Is It Ethical?
« Reply #865 on: April 21, 2013, 05:48:17 PM »
Quote from: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ethics#Defining_ethics
According to Tomas Paul and Linda Elder of the Foundation for Critical Thinking, "most people confuse ethics with behaving in accordance with social conventions, religious beliefs, and the law", and don't treat ethics as a stand-alone concept.[2] Paul and Elder define ethics as "a set of concepts and principles that guide us in determining what behavior helps or harms sentient creatures".[2] The Cambridge Dictionary of Philosophy states that the word ethics is "commonly used interchangeably with 'morality' ... and sometimes it is used more narrowly to mean the moral principles of a particular tradition, group, or individual."[3]

Offline CountValentine

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Re: Is It Ethical?
« Reply #866 on: April 21, 2013, 05:58:43 PM »
(Let's do one step at a time. If you do agree ethics and religion are the same for me and many on here you can feel free to ask what everyone's opinion about the CC application scenario is...)
I don't agree.  :)
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Offline george

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Re: Is It Ethical?
« Reply #867 on: April 21, 2013, 06:04:33 PM »
If you do agree ethics and religion are the same for me and many on here
I don't agree.  :)
Excuse me for budding in, but jj1000's assertion is not a matter of opinion. He and others are stating that for them, ethics and religion are one and the same (since their religion defines their ethics). Replying that you don't agree is like saying you don't agree that my favorite color is purple.

Offline AJK

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Re: Is It Ethical?
« Reply #868 on: April 21, 2013, 06:06:10 PM »


"Paul and Elder define ethics as "a set of concepts and principles that guide us in determining what behavior helps or harms sentient creatures"."

Which is, of course, ludicrous and begs the question.

How the hell does one create a set of concepts and principles that is inherently amorphous and ambiguous from generation to generation?

Perhaps those who think the above have no issue with ethics being fundamentally dynamic, or perhaps its my own upbringing that compels the conclusion that ethics/morals should be unchanging and static?

Yes, some things are "clearly" ethical/unethical, but a large portion of the calculus is necessarily spent in "the gray" without clearly being on one side or the other.

What then? By what barometer do we judge? By what litmus test to we determine "ethical-ness" or the lack thereof?
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Re: Is It Ethical?
« Reply #869 on: April 21, 2013, 06:06:31 PM »
What about saying Religion and ethics are not the same but you define and choose your ethic beliefs according to your religious beliefs?
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Offline george

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Re: Is It Ethical?
« Reply #870 on: April 21, 2013, 06:09:41 PM »
What about saying Religion and ethics are not the same but you define and choose your ethic beliefs according to your religious beliefs?
that's playing semantics. if your ethics are defined by your religion, that is what is meant by "ethics and religion are one and the same"

Offline CountValentine

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Re: Is It Ethical?
« Reply #871 on: April 21, 2013, 06:12:51 PM »
What about saying Religion and ethics are not the same but you define and choose your ethic beliefs according to your religious beliefs?
I am sure that is how most here look at it. Now how about someone who does not believe in religion? Can't he/she have ethics?
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Re: Is It Ethical?
« Reply #872 on: April 21, 2013, 06:14:23 PM »
that's playing semantics. if your ethics are defined by your religion, that is what is meant by "ethics and religion are one and the same"
That is like saying if someone has no religion they have no ethics.
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Offline jj1000

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Re: Is It Ethical?
« Reply #873 on: April 21, 2013, 06:17:03 PM »
I am sure that is how most here look at it. Now how about someone who does not believe in religion? Can't he/she have ethics?
That is like saying if someone has no religion they have no ethics.
In their opinion they do. In my opinion they may be right on somethings and wrong on others.


They have ethics, I just won't agree with many of said ethics. Many villains in out history had ethics, I just don't agree with them...

For example if someone says killing all Jews is the most ethical thing to do because it will save the world from an evil, then they think that is ethical and they do in fact have ethics. I just don't agree with their ethics.

I do believe killing Amalekaits is ethical though.

Catching my drift at all?
« Last Edit: April 21, 2013, 06:20:33 PM by jj1000 »
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Re: Is It Ethical?
« Reply #874 on: April 21, 2013, 06:19:34 PM »
The way I understand things are as follows: Ethics are inherently subjective, they are what 'feels' right and what 'feels' wrong. Every person's ethics are shaped by many things, his upbringing, his religion, the society in which he lives, the books he reads and the movies he watches etc. etc.

Now wake me up in 10 pages when jj1000 and CV are done 8)

Offline CountValentine

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Re: Is It Ethical?
« Reply #875 on: April 21, 2013, 06:21:55 PM »
The way I understand things are as follows: Ethics are inherently subjective, they are what 'feels' right and what 'feels' wrong. Every person's ethics are shaped by many things, his upbringing, his religion, the society in which he lives, the books he reads and the movies he watches etc. etc.
Ding ding ding we have a winner!
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Re: Is It Ethical?
« Reply #876 on: April 21, 2013, 06:28:44 PM »
I do believe killing Amalekaits is ethical though.

Catching my drift at all?
Not sure, is this just an example?
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Offline jj1000

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Re: Is It Ethical?
« Reply #877 on: April 21, 2013, 06:51:14 PM »
Not sure, is this just an example?
Yes, one example of many things I think are ethical that others in the world would disagree with.
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Offline george

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Re: Is It Ethical?
« Reply #878 on: April 21, 2013, 06:56:34 PM »
That is like saying if someone has no religion they have no ethics.
Huh?
Please explain how what I said logically leads to your conclusion.
Anyone can have ethics and they can choose to define their ethics using whatever means they wish. My assertion was that for those who define their ethics by their religion, it can be said that for them, "ethics and religion are one and the same".
I strongly disagree, however, with several posters who imply that ethics is something that passively happens to a person based on their upbringing, etc. If it's not a conscious decision to define ethics via some means or another,  then it ain't ethics. It may be good behavior, good habits, etc. that were learned from one's upbringing etc. But it's not ethics unless it's something you decided to stick to because you feel it's right. Ethics are timeless, behaviors are dynamic.

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Re: Is It Ethical?
« Reply #879 on: April 21, 2013, 06:59:50 PM »
Yes, one example of many things I think are ethical that others in the world would disagree with.
Ouch!
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