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This thread is to discuss whether people feel that something is unethical, not to find out what the law*/T&C says.

Any Halachic questions should be posted here.

*According to CountValentine this includes religion, but unfortunately for him, the general consensus is that religion will always be entwined in this thread.

*Hint* It's most likely not ethical.

Author Topic: Is It Ethical?  (Read 256798 times)

Offline dealfinder85

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Re: Is It Ethical?
« Reply #1995 on: July 16, 2015, 03:20:19 PM »
What do you think a Chillul Hashem is? Didn't I already see this argument somewhere in the JS section of DDF?

The word "legitimately" has no place here. The question is if it is ethical, i.e. despite the fact that the retailer allows the return of the item, is it wrong to return an item which you clearly have gotten full use out of?

Here we are adding another variable into the question: the person returning the item is an observant Jew. Observant Jews claim to follow the Torah and to conduct themselves in a G-Dly manner. We teach our children that we are a chosen nation, and that we ought to conduct ourselves in a more refined manner. We teach our children that we are to be A Light Unto the Nations. Heck, we even ask the government to give us unique privileges, like allowing us to serve in agencies that do not allow beards - which some of us grow because we are a holy nation, and to enact workplace discrimination laws so that we can observe Shabbat and the Holidays.

So a gentile is standing in Costco, and he observes as a Frum Jew walks in with a pee-stained, yellowing mattress that is at least seven years old, and he returns it for a full refund...
im with him
the question isnt is there something halachically wrong with return these items, bc as long as you arent convincing them to take back something that goes against their policy, i dont see a problem.
but after getting clear, full usage of an item until it completely breaks down/rips/gets pee stained, returning it at that point is, i think, a chilul Hashem.
think of it this way. if you were on line at costco returning clothing that didnt fit, and you saw a jew walk in with that pee stained mattress, would you think he is an upstanding, righteous, individual?

Offline ADG

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Re: Is It Ethical?
« Reply #1996 on: July 16, 2015, 03:33:28 PM »
What do you think a Chillul Hashem is? Didn't I already see this argument somewhere in the JS section of DDF?

The word "legitimately" has no place here. The question is if it is ethical, i.e. despite the fact that the retailer allows the return of the item, is it wrong to return an item which you clearly have gotten full use out of?

Here we are adding another variable into the question: the person returning the item is an observant Jew. Observant Jews claim to follow the Torah and to conduct themselves in a G-Dly manner. We teach our children that we are a chosen nation, and that we ought to conduct ourselves in a more refined manner. We teach our children that we are to be A Light Unto the Nations. Heck, we even ask the government to give us unique privileges, like allowing us to serve in agencies that do not allow beards - which some of us grow because we are a holy nation, and to enact workplace discrimination laws so that we can observe Shabbat and the Holidays.

So a gentile is standing in Costco, and he observes as a Frum Jew walks in with a pee-stained, yellowing mattress that is at least seven years old, and he returns it for a full refund...

As entertaining and even correct your point may be ...It still wouldnt constituent a Chilul Hashem because  chilul Hashem is a halachick term and like all halachick terms have definitions, so does this one.  You are correct that it may not look so great to a bystander but it hasnt any relevance; unlike weather the action of returning the item is legitimate . The fact that it is legitimate is more important to the definition of chilul Hashem then your " ethics " which bare no importance.   

Offline Cheesecake

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Re: Is It Ethical?
« Reply #1997 on: July 16, 2015, 03:39:45 PM »
You would be wrong.
So if I observe a few minyanim full of frum looking Jews on the return line at Walmart or Costco, I shouldn't be concerned for chillul Hashem?

Offline ADG

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Re: Is It Ethical?
« Reply #1998 on: July 16, 2015, 03:41:45 PM »
So if I observe a few minyanim full of frum looking Jews on the return line at Walmart or Costco, I shouldn't be concerned for chillul Hashem?
You should be concerned! about looking at Jews with negative thoughts and emotions 

Offline dealfinder85

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Re: Is It Ethical?
« Reply #1999 on: July 16, 2015, 03:43:59 PM »
You should be concerned! about looking at Jews with negative thoughts and emotions
let me guess?
not a chillul hashem when that walmart had to change their return policy bc of jews?

Offline zale

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Re: Is It Ethical?
« Reply #2000 on: July 16, 2015, 03:45:29 PM »
As entertaining and even correct your point may be ...It still wouldnt constituent a Chilul Hashem because  chilul Hashem is a halachick term and like all halachick terms have definitions, so does this one.  You are correct that it may not look so great to a bystander but it hasnt any relevance; unlike weather the action of returning the item is legitimate . The fact that it is legitimate is more important to the definition of chilul Hashem then your " ethics " which bare no importance.

Taken from OU.org:

The third category is what we typically mean when we talk about chillul Hashem: when someone who should know better acts in a fashion that is perceived to be beneath him. In a Talmudic discussion of what would constitute a chillul Hashem, Rav said it would be if he didnít pay his butcher on time (Yoma 86a). Thatís not such a grievous thing but coming from Rav, it reflects badly on Torah scholars. Each of us at our own level is responsible to strive to act upward and not stoop down.

The reason for this mitzvah is gratitude to God. He created us and gave us everything. How horrible would we be to act in a fashion that makes Him look bad and causes people to say, ďThatís how Jews act?Ē or ďThatís how religious people act?


Let me guess: you disagree?

Offline dealfinder85

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Re: Is It Ethical?
« Reply #2001 on: July 16, 2015, 03:46:22 PM »
Taken from OU.org:

The third category is what we typically mean when we talk about chillul Hashem: when someone who should know better acts in a fashion that is perceived to be beneath him. In a Talmudic discussion of what would constitute a chillul Hashem, Rav said it would be if he didnít pay his butcher on time (Yoma 86a). Thatís not such a grievous thing but coming from Rav, it reflects badly on Torah scholars. Each of us at our own level is responsible to strive to act upward and not stoop down.

The reason for this mitzvah is gratitude to God. He created us and gave us everything. How horrible would we be to act in a fashion that makes Him look bad and causes people to say, ďThatís how Jews act?Ē or ďThatís how religious people act?


Let me guess: you disagree?
nicely done

Offline ChaimMoskowitz

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Re: Is It Ethical?
« Reply #2002 on: July 16, 2015, 03:57:14 PM »
Here we go with this crap again. If you don't know the difference between ethics and religion you should just keep your mouth shut. You want to discuss religion then go start a thread about it preferably tomorrow.
I just found a new supply of forks!

Offline ADG

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Re: Is It Ethical?
« Reply #2003 on: July 16, 2015, 04:19:21 PM »
Taken from OU.org:

The third category is what we typically mean when we talk about chillul Hashem: when someone who should know better acts in a fashion that is perceived to be beneath him. In a Talmudic discussion of what would constitute a chillul Hashem, Rav said it would be if he didnít pay his butcher on time (Yoma 86a). Thatís not such a grievous thing but coming from Rav, it reflects badly on Torah scholars. Each of us at our own level is responsible to strive to act upward and not stoop down.

The reason for this mitzvah is gratitude to God. He created us and gave us everything. How horrible would we be to act in a fashion that makes Him look bad and causes people to say, ďThatís how Jews act?Ē or ďThatís how religious people act?


Let me guess: you disagree?

Appears I am wrong my apologizes

Offline Aaaron

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Re: Is It Ethical?
« Reply #2004 on: July 16, 2015, 06:13:26 PM »
Appears I am wrong my apologizes

*slow clap*

Now there's a man.  Someone who can own up and admit when they're wrong. 

Offline ChaimMoskowitz

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Re: Is It Ethical?
« Reply #2005 on: July 16, 2015, 06:57:14 PM »
Now there's a man.  Someone who can own up and admit when they're wrong.
My post count would double if I did that.  :)
I just found a new supply of forks!

Offline Freddie

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Re: Is It Ethical?
« Reply #2006 on: July 16, 2015, 06:57:34 PM »
What do you think a Chillul Hashem is? Didn't I already see this argument somewhere in the JS section of DDF?

The word "legitimately" has no place here. The question is if it is ethical, i.e. despite the fact that the retailer allows the return of the item, is it wrong to return an item which you clearly have gotten full use out of?

Here we are adding another variable into the question: the person returning the item is an observant Jew. Observant Jews claim to follow the Torah and to conduct themselves in a G-Dly manner. We teach our children that we are a chosen nation, and that we ought to conduct ourselves in a more refined manner. We teach our children that we are to be A Light Unto the Nations. Heck, we even ask the government to give us unique privileges, like allowing us to serve in agencies that do not allow beards - which some of us grow because we are a holy nation, and to enact workplace discrimination laws so that we can observe Shabbat and the Holidays.

So a gentile is standing in Costco, and he observes as a Frum Jew walks in with a pee-stained, yellowing mattress that is at least seven years old, and he returns it for a full refund...

pee-stained mattress...  ;D ;D ;D
you paint a picture, my friend.

Offline Redbull3

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Re: Is It Ethical?
« Reply #2007 on: July 16, 2015, 07:07:57 PM »
*slow clap*

Now there's a man.  Someone who can own up and admit when they're wrong.

+1

Offline Cheesecake

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Re: Is It Ethical?
« Reply #2008 on: July 21, 2015, 12:58:58 AM »
Here I took a look at the thread to point out the Rambam (Yesodei Hatorah 5:3), and find that it's already been settled peacefully.

Nicely done indeed, on all ends.

Offline dealfinder85

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Re: Is It Ethical?
« Reply #2009 on: July 21, 2015, 09:49:56 AM »
Here I took a look at the thread to point out the Rambam (Yesodei Hatorah 5:3), and find that it's already been settled peacefully.

Nicely done indeed, on all ends.
i saw the user name began with "Ch" and for some reason i assumed it was CM
I then saw the post and had to look back at the user name...