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This thread is to discuss whether people feel that something is unethical, not to find out what the law*/T&C says.

Any Halachic questions should be posted here.

*According to CountValentine this includes religion, but unfortunately for him, the general consensus is that religion will always be entwined in this thread.

*Hint* It's most likely not ethical.

Author Topic: Is It Ethical?  (Read 299840 times)

Offline karatemike

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Re: Is It Ethical?
« Reply #180 on: March 21, 2012, 04:11:23 PM »
This is the part I am surprised at and to be honest do not understand.

+ 1

Offline WhyAich

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Is It Ethical?
« Reply #181 on: March 21, 2012, 04:13:04 PM »
Let me make this clear. I have no beef with any main stream religion that I know of. I believe any main stream religion is a plus in a person’s life.

I was surprise that Judaism treats certain things differently depending if the merchant is Jewish or not. Is this a belief, law or do I just have it wrong?

Maybe Judaism is requiring a Jew to go out of his way, higher than any expectations for his fellow brother.
For anyone else there is no such requirement.

It's like you help your brother before a friend.

Let's say that it's not a law of Judaism saying you must return and keep high standards to JEWS rather it's saying be above the letter of the law for your BROTHER.

This thinking is logical and makes sense.
Would anyone deny they would do more for a brother than for a friend?
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Offline Dan

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Re: Is It Ethical?
« Reply #182 on: March 21, 2012, 04:24:24 PM »
I was raised Roman Catholic and it is pretty simple for me. We are all Godís children.
Which is exactly what I was taught as well.
I think WhyAich has explained it better that I have.
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Offline HelpMe

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Re: Is It Ethical?
« Reply #183 on: March 21, 2012, 04:28:28 PM »
I think WhyAich has explained it better that I have.
+1
I think it would be best for me to stop here.
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Offline AsherO

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Re: Is It Ethical?
« Reply #184 on: March 21, 2012, 04:32:56 PM »
Which is exactly what I was taught as well.
I think WhyAich has explained it better that I have.

+1 to both points.
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Offline karatemike

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Re: Is It Ethical?
« Reply #185 on: March 21, 2012, 05:08:24 PM »
Maybe Judaism is requiring a Jew to go out of his way, higher than any expectations for his fellow brother.
For anyone else there is no such requirement.

It's like you help your brother before a friend.

Let's say that it's not a law of Judaism saying you must return and keep high standards to JEWS rather it's saying be above the letter of the law for your BROTHER.

This thinking is logical and makes sense.
Would anyone deny they would do more for a brother than for a friend?

Well said.
Simply stated though. Is handing back the incorrect change or even driving a few minutes after realizing the mistake made, really going out of the way?

Offline shmuelb

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Re: Is It Ethical?
« Reply #186 on: March 21, 2012, 05:49:03 PM »
I want to share an explanation I heard in Los Angeles 25 years ago.

This also applies to other similar laws in Halacha - Jewish Code of Life. I will give a better example that everyone here should relate to better.

Imagine, you pull in to a First Class lounge of Qatar's Airline or the American Airline Admiral's Club. You request directions to the spa and shower area. The receptionist smiles and asks for your card. You answer "which card?" She asks if you are a club member. You respond that you are not a member of any club, you have an Amex Zync card and you want to freshen up before your flight in 3 hours.

She will politely send you away, she may direct you to where the main terminal waiting area is. "These amenities are only for members of our exclusive club. It is open to anyone but you have to pay your dues and fulfill certain requirements. You need to fly 30 times in 1 calendar year, earn status and pay the annual fee. You have to participate in helping build our airline. If you do that, we will be very happy to serve you. You can not just come for the free spa and not pay the dues etc."

If you want the basics, you have no problem. All your needs are tended to. But if you want something extra, for example a free spa treatment, you can get that too, but only if you are a club member.

The same thing with Judaism. The ethics demanded of Judaism are actually of a higher standard than other religions, even for when dealing with non-Jews. However there are special perks, benefits, which are demanded of us when dealing with each other.

It happens to be that in contrast with today's society, Jews have no benefits or rights, only responsibilities and duties. The focus is on being givers not takers. When you give, someone gets but our focus should be to give to others, not how much we are getting from them.

Was this clear?  :)
siyag lachachma :-)

Offline WhyAich

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Is It Ethical?
« Reply #187 on: March 21, 2012, 05:50:54 PM »
Well said.
Simply stated though. Is handing back the incorrect change or even driving a few minutes after realizing the mistake made, really going out of the way?

It's not going out of the way physically. It's in concept. The point here is that you're super careful. Those things you do for a brother.

And as Dan said, it's always commendable to do it for every person!
 
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Offline HelpMe

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Re: Is It Ethical?
« Reply #188 on: March 22, 2012, 12:44:50 AM »
After rereading parts of this thread I see I did not answer your questions.

Isn't it based on what your minister/priest tells you?
No. The Ten Commandments and the Bible will guide you.

AFAIK the only book of set laws in Christianity is in Catholicism the code of canon law, as to the inner workings of the church.
Even devote Catholics do not follow all the Canon Laws. A glaring example would be contraception.
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Offline YankyDoodle

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Re: Is It Ethical?
« Reply #189 on: March 22, 2012, 10:57:04 AM »
The Ten Commandments and the Bible will guide you.
Even devote Catholics do not follow all the Canon Laws. A glaring example would be contraception.

Neither the ten commandments nor the bible have a clear directive regarding what to do in the case being discussed. In lieu of that, man is left up to his own personal moral distinctions. The code of jewish law directs the Jewish individual towards a more centralized "code of morals." it will help a person from doing something clearly bad or evil, but it will not overburden ppl with requirements that are impossible to keep. When taken in context with what WhyAich has said, I think it becomes clear that the intention is to do more good not discriminate against others.

On a side note, the "perfidis Judaeis" was only removed around 1960 (or so) from the good friday prayer. In addition the list of popes and high ranking leaders who have referred to the Jews as 'cursed' and 'traitors' is much more extensive and offensive than any bias that I've seen in Judaism. One thing I must say though is that the current (and more recent) Catholic Churches have been much more respectful and understanding of Jews.

Offline dans fan

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Re: Is It Ethical?
« Reply #190 on: March 22, 2012, 10:15:54 PM »
I'm surprised in the answer, I would think being honest is obligatory regardless of what type of person made the mistake.
you raised a interesting point. but your question is based on a misunderstanding that you have.
if it were to say in the torah(jewish) law that when one sells you somthing by mistake if he is a jew you must return it but if he a non jew you dont have to, then you may understand it as not being fair or inferior.
but that is false the torah law does not differentiate between jew and gentile when it comes to being honest.
rather the torah defines what is a transaction (in our case between buyer and seller) one must knowingly, willingly and intend  to transfer a item from his ownership to another person, missing out on any one of the above components leaves the transaction incomplete. (as if you would write up a contract and never sign it, there is no transaction) but the torah law does not impose its laws on non jews, (unlike other religions that impose their beliefs on all ppl)  and leaves it up to the law of the land to decide what defines a transaction, in our country a transaction is based on willingly giving you item to another person.

for example Mr. A(jew) decides he want to retire and move to florida so he sells his house in nyc to Mr. B(jew) a month later Mr.A boss double his salary and therefore Mr. A decides to stay in nyc. he can go right back to his old home and throw Mr B out because evan though he knowingly and willingly sold it his intention was bc he would move and that didnt end up happening, therefore his intention was not to sell it, and the transaction is incomplete. if Mr A and Mr B were a non jew according to the law of the land the sale is complete because he knowingly and willingly sold it.
therefore it is true that if a mr a jew bought from another jew somthing and the seller didnt intend to sell it, he must return it bc the sale was incomplete due to the way the torah law defins a transaction (not an issue of being honest). but if a jew bought from a non jew he may keep it because according the the definition of the law of the land its a good transaction. that is just a fallout of a difference in how to define somthing, so yes you will find a case where the jew will get his item back as apposed the the non jew having to take a loss

Offline meshugener

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Re: Is It Ethical?
« Reply #191 on: March 22, 2012, 10:26:58 PM »
Like!
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Offline HelpMe

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Re: Is It Ethical?
« Reply #192 on: March 23, 2012, 12:37:22 AM »
@dans fan or anyone.
How about this example.
A Jew orders 1 IPod online but instead receives 1 case (24 IPodís) by mistake. He is only charged for one and the invoice states one. What does the Torah state he must do if the merchant was Jewish and what must he do if the merchant was a non-Jew.

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Offline AJK

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Re: Is It Ethical?
« Reply #193 on: March 23, 2012, 09:32:53 AM »
How is that scenario any different from what's been stated already? I feel like you know the answer, and your question only serves to ruffle feathers.
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Offline WhyAich

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Is It Ethical?
« Reply #194 on: March 23, 2012, 10:15:12 AM »
How is that scenario any different from what's been stated already? I feel like you know the answer, and your question only serves to ruffle feathers.
+1
I think what we brought down and explained already is enough.

R u trying to corner people into a scenario that they don't know the answer to, and then say, I got you!

Come on. The Torah is fair 100%. It was given by G-d. That's what all religions believe, no one argues, do if it was given by G-d its probably true and just. Man's intellectual abilities are not only limited but they can be distorted as well. Sometimes you might not be able to see the truth in every scenario. Take the past explanations and say, hey, that makes sense so other cases probably also do. Its given by G-d so rely on him,  If you rely on G-d that is.

If not then we have a totally different discussion.
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