Topic Wiki

This thread is to discuss whether people feel that something is unethical, not to find out what the law*/T&C says.

Any Halachic questions should be posted here.

*According to CountValentine this includes religion, but unfortunately for him, the general consensus is that religion will always be entwined in this thread.

*Hint* It's most likely not ethical.

Author Topic: Is It Ethical?  (Read 320528 times)

Offline Definitions

  • Dansdeals Lifetime Platinum Elite
  • *******
  • Join Date: Jan 2018
  • Posts: 1185
  • Total likes: 199
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 2
    • View Profile

Offline Agoldsc1

  • Dansdeals Lifetime Platinum Elite
  • *******
  • Join Date: Jun 2015
  • Posts: 1196
  • Total likes: 64
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 1
    • View Profile
  • Location: New York, NY
Re: Is It Ethical?
« Reply #2446 on: June 30, 2019, 12:25:08 AM »
Disney World offers discounted annual passes for "Florida Residents" without defining what a FL resident is. Rather, they state that "You’ll need to provide proof of a Florida residential address in order to purchase a Florida Resident park ticket or annual pass", and then provide a list of acceptable documentation, including (i) Valid Florida driver’s license (must have a Florida address) and (ii) Mail from financial institutions, including checking, savings or investment account statements. See full list here: https://disneyworld.disney.go.com/faq/tickets/proof-florida-address.

Nowhere on the page (that I can see at least) does it state how many nights are required in FL in order to be considered a resident, or provide any other test for determining residency. So, as long as someone meets the qualifications on the page, would it be ethical to purchase a FL resident annual pass? For example:

1. Person A lives with this grandmother in FL all year round, but keeps his NY ID and didn't change his mailing address on his official documentation.
2. Person B lives in NY all year round, but has access to his grandmother's vacant apartment in FL all year round, and has his financial documentation forwarded there.
2. Person C lives in NY all year round, but keeps an apartment in FL for occasional weekend visits, and has his financial documentation forwarded there.
3. Person D lives in NY all year round, but has a PO Box in Florida and has his financial documentation forwarded there.

Which of these three people would be ethically entitled to a FL resident annual pass? Or is it always ethical as long as you can provide authentic documentation as requested?

Offline CountValentine

  • Dansdeals Lifetime Presidential Platinum Elite
  • *********
  • Join Date: Mar 2013
  • Posts: 9075
  • Total likes: 2445
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips -1
  • Gender: Female
    • View Profile
  • Location: Poland - Exiled
  • Programs: DAOTYA, DDF Level 3, 5K Lounge
Re: Is It Ethical?
« Reply #2447 on: June 30, 2019, 02:41:24 AM »
How about this one?
Person A thought about moving to Florida and has several CU's there for MS.  ::)
You're so far up Trump's a** you can see Giuliani's feet.  HT Baruch

Offline Yonah

  • Dansdeals Platinum Elite + Lifetime Silver Elite
  • *****
  • Join Date: Mar 2014
  • Posts: 500
  • Total likes: 236
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 4
    • View Profile
Re: Is It Ethical?
« Reply #2448 on: July 01, 2019, 09:49:34 AM »
Disney World offers discounted annual passes for "Florida Residents" without defining what a FL resident is. Rather, they state that "You’ll need to provide proof of a Florida residential address in order to purchase a Florida Resident park ticket or annual pass", and then provide a list of acceptable documentation, including (i) Valid Florida driver’s license (must have a Florida address) and (ii) Mail from financial institutions, including checking, savings or investment account statements. See full list here: https://disneyworld.disney.go.com/faq/tickets/proof-florida-address.

Nowhere on the page (that I can see at least) does it state how many nights are required in FL in order to be considered a resident, or provide any other test for determining residency. So, as long as someone meets the qualifications on the page, would it be ethical to purchase a FL resident annual pass? For example:

1. Person A lives with this grandmother in FL all year round, but keeps his NY ID and didn't change his mailing address on his official documentation.
2. Person B lives in NY all year round, but has access to his grandmother's vacant apartment in FL all year round, and has his financial documentation forwarded there.
2. Person C lives in NY all year round, but keeps an apartment in FL for occasional weekend visits, and has his financial documentation forwarded there.
3. Person D lives in NY all year round, but has a PO Box in Florida and has his financial documentation forwarded there.

Which of these three people would be ethically entitled to a FL resident annual pass? Or is it always ethical as long as you can provide authentic documentation as requested?

I believe that this is ethical - as any one of those people would be able to satisfy the proof of residency requirements.

I imagine that Disney's lawyers put a fair amount of thought and effort into their policy before deciding on how one would prove 'residency' - understanding the pros and cons of each. For example, Florida does have an inordinate number of 'snowbirds' and those snowbirds may or may not have local driver's licenses, but most likely have a utility bill or bank statement. While they know some people who don't fit the classic definition of a Florida resident, they imagine that they constitute a small number of cases relative to the aforementioned snowbirds who's grandchildren they want to visit their park.

I believe that this is a similar in spirit to the NY and NJ policies for in-state college tuition at SUNY, CUNY and Rutgers. In order to enable illegal immigrants to get in-state tuition, both NY and NJ passed an alternative definition of residency - if you graduate from a high school in state, and have spent at least two years there, your diploma and transcripts prove residency. So if you live in Monsey but go to school in Teaneck you are eligible for In-state tuition at Rutgers, even though you are clearly not a New Jersey resident in any sense of the word.  They created this policy in this manner to help a certain subset of the population, knowing that another minority will take advantage of it.


Offline Yonah

  • Dansdeals Platinum Elite + Lifetime Silver Elite
  • *****
  • Join Date: Mar 2014
  • Posts: 500
  • Total likes: 236
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 4
    • View Profile
Re: Is It Ethical?
« Reply #2449 on: July 01, 2019, 09:57:10 AM »
In a similar vane to the post above - a lot of museums have annual passes. These passes not only give you exhibits to their own museums, but through reciprocity, dozens of museums around the country. Before the days of the Internet, this wasn't a big deal. Most people would buy the pass at their local museum, and occasionally visit museums out of town.

Once these passes became available over the Internet, a weird sort of arbitrage happened. People would find the cheapest pass in US that gave them local reciprocity, and then use that pass to go to their local museum fairly regularly. For example, if you live in NJ, and your kids like Liberty Science Center. The LSC pass might have been $200. But a pass for a kids museum in Fort Lauderdale is $100, and includes reciprocal entry to the LSC. So you buy that pass online, and then keep going to LSC, saving yourself $100 a year.

Is that ethical?

BTW, I know that in the last decade or so, museums have now restricted these passes in one or more of the following ways:
- You can only buy a pass if you are local to the museum that you are buying it from
- You can only use one reciprocal visit per year
- When getting admission to the reciprocal museum, you need to prove you live more than 100 miles away.


Offline Agoldsc1

  • Dansdeals Lifetime Platinum Elite
  • *******
  • Join Date: Jun 2015
  • Posts: 1196
  • Total likes: 64
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 1
    • View Profile
  • Location: New York, NY
Re: Is It Ethical?
« Reply #2450 on: July 01, 2019, 09:58:48 AM »
I believe that this is ethical - as any one of those people would be able to satisfy the proof of residency requirements.

I imagine that Disney's lawyers put a fair amount of thought and effort into their policy before deciding on how one would prove 'residency' - understanding the pros and cons of each. For example, Florida does have an inordinate number of 'snowbirds' and those snowbirds may or may not have local driver's licenses, but most likely have a utility bill or bank statement. While they know some people who don't fit the classic definition of a Florida resident, they imagine that they constitute a small number of cases relative to the aforementioned snowbirds who's grandchildren they want to visit their park.

I believe that this is a similar in spirit to the NY and NJ policies for in-state college tuition at SUNY, CUNY and Rutgers. In order to enable illegal immigrants to get in-state tuition, both NY and NJ passed an alternative definition of residency - if you graduate from a high school in state, and have spent at least two years there, your diploma and transcripts prove residency. So if you live in Monsey but go to school in Teaneck you are eligible for In-state tuition at Rutgers, even though you are clearly not a New Jersey resident in any sense of the word.  They created this policy in this manner to help a certain subset of the population, knowing that another minority will take advantage of it.

Interesting point-of-view. Do you think that "good faith" plays into this equation at all, or is it strictly a matter of compliance? Meaning, a snow-bird who spends 4 months out of the year in FL might actually consider himself a resident of FL and the other state. But how about someone who opens a PO Box in FL and has his financial documents sent there solely for the purpose of obtaining this discount, and doesn't actually consider himself a FL resident in any way? Do you say that as long as he goes through the effort then he qualifies?   

Offline Yonah

  • Dansdeals Platinum Elite + Lifetime Silver Elite
  • *****
  • Join Date: Mar 2014
  • Posts: 500
  • Total likes: 236
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 4
    • View Profile
Re: Is It Ethical?
« Reply #2451 on: July 01, 2019, 01:26:11 PM »
Interesting point-of-view. Do you think that "good faith" plays into this equation at all, or is it strictly a matter of compliance? Meaning, a snow-bird who spends 4 months out of the year in FL might actually consider himself a resident of FL and the other state. But how about someone who opens a PO Box in FL and has his financial documents sent there solely for the purpose of obtaining this discount, and doesn't actually consider himself a FL resident in any way? Do you say that as long as he goes through the effort then he qualifies?

Interesting, you left out that detail in the first post. I am assuming that there is a small element of good faith on the part of the person buying it. i.e. If I incorporate a business in Florida, even though I don't live there, I think it's fair for me to use that address for this because the test of residency is small, and I do have some small connection to residency.

However, once you're establishing "residency" solely for the purpose of getting the discount, I think you're crossing a line. I'm also curious, because how much are you spending to get the P.O. box and how much are you saving?

Offline Definitions

  • Dansdeals Lifetime Platinum Elite
  • *******
  • Join Date: Jan 2018
  • Posts: 1185
  • Total likes: 199
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 2
    • View Profile
Re: Is It Ethical?
« Reply #2452 on: July 01, 2019, 03:11:39 PM »
Is it ethical to spray a stores perfume to smell when considering to buy one?

Reminds me of the grapes :)

I'm assuming it's fine. Especially since the store I was in keeps some in these plastic lock boxes and the cheaper ones without them.

Offline shaulyaakov

  • Dansdeals Presidential Platinum Elite
  • ********
  • Join Date: May 2013
  • Posts: 2632
  • Total likes: 296
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 3
    • View Profile
Re: Is It Ethical?
« Reply #2453 on: July 02, 2019, 09:40:22 AM »
Is it ethical to spray a stores perfume to smell when considering to buy one?

Reminds me of the grapes :)

I'm assuming it's fine. Especially since the store I was in keeps some in these plastic lock boxes and the cheaper ones without them.

Most stores have open bottles and those little pieces of paper out. I would not open a sealed box for this without asking, as the next customer shouldn't have to buy a bottle with less in it. Any good store will gladly help you and eat the cost of the bottle - even Century 21 has a whole sample display.

Online Jellybelly

  • Dansdeals Platinum Elite + Lifetime Gold Elite
  • ******
  • Join Date: Aug 2016
  • Posts: 804
  • Total likes: 523
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 0
    • View Profile
Re: Is It Ethical?
« Reply #2454 on: December 30, 2019, 11:24:56 PM »
My kids all went to the toy store to buy something with all the Chanukah gelt they got. My 4 yr old picked out a toy that only uses about 1/4 of his money. Is it ethical to “pocket” the rest or to let other siblings use it, if their toy is a drop more?
What would everyone  here do?
Im not asking lihalacha, because as far as I know, it really all belkngs to me as the parent

Offline CountValentine

  • Dansdeals Lifetime Presidential Platinum Elite
  • *********
  • Join Date: Mar 2013
  • Posts: 9075
  • Total likes: 2445
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips -1
  • Gender: Female
    • View Profile
  • Location: Poland - Exiled
  • Programs: DAOTYA, DDF Level 3, 5K Lounge
Re: Is It Ethical?
« Reply #2455 on: December 30, 2019, 11:31:20 PM »
My kids all went to the toy store to buy something with all the Chanukah gelt they got. My 4 yr old picked out a toy that only uses about 1/4 of his money. Is it ethical to “pocket” the rest or to let other siblings use it, if their toy is a drop more?
What would everyone  here do?
Im not asking lihalacha, because as far as I know, it really all belkngs to me as the parent
Since you said "his money" the answer is simple.
You're so far up Trump's a** you can see Giuliani's feet.  HT Baruch

Online etech0

  • Dansdeals Lifetime 10K Presidential Platinum Elite
  • *******
  • Join Date: Dec 2013
  • Posts: 11850
  • Total likes: 1795
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 1
    • View Profile
  • Location: not lakewood
  • Programs: DDF
Re: Is It Ethical?
« Reply #2456 on: December 30, 2019, 11:32:37 PM »
Depending on the age of the child you may want to mention to them that there is money left if he wants to choose another thing to purchase in addition.

Whatever is left I would put aside in an envelope for that child. In a few years maybe he'll want something that costs more than the gelt he got, and you'll be able to pull it out. And if you don't end up spending it, whenever he is old enough to "have" his own money you can give it to him.

Another option would be to start a bank account for each child and put gifts / extra gelt in there. They will need a bank account eventually anyways and like this it'll have something in it for them.
Workflowy. You won't know what you're missing until you try it.

Offline CountValentine

  • Dansdeals Lifetime Presidential Platinum Elite
  • *********
  • Join Date: Mar 2013
  • Posts: 9075
  • Total likes: 2445
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips -1
  • Gender: Female
    • View Profile
  • Location: Poland - Exiled
  • Programs: DAOTYA, DDF Level 3, 5K Lounge
Re: Is It Ethical?
« Reply #2457 on: January 07, 2020, 09:46:55 AM »
...to be buying gold now?
You're so far up Trump's a** you can see Giuliani's feet.  HT Baruch

Online aygart

  • Dansdeals Lifetime 10K Presidential Platinum Elite
  • *******
  • Join Date: May 2008
  • Posts: 11860
  • Total likes: 6135
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 8
    • View Profile
    • Lower Watt Energy Brokers
  • Programs: www.lowerwatt.com
Re: Is It Ethical?
« Reply #2458 on: January 07, 2020, 10:01:44 AM »
...to be buying gold now?
What is the ethical question?
Feelings don't care about your facts

Offline CountValentine

  • Dansdeals Lifetime Presidential Platinum Elite
  • *********
  • Join Date: Mar 2013
  • Posts: 9075
  • Total likes: 2445
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips -1
  • Gender: Female
    • View Profile
  • Location: Poland - Exiled
  • Programs: DAOTYA, DDF Level 3, 5K Lounge
Re: Is It Ethical?
« Reply #2459 on: January 07, 2020, 10:05:54 AM »
What is the ethical question?
Buying gold in believing there will be a war so you make a profit?
You're so far up Trump's a** you can see Giuliani's feet.  HT Baruch