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This thread is to discuss whether people feel that something is unethical, not to find out what the law*/T&C says.

Any Halachic questions should be posted here.

*According to CountValentine this includes religion, but unfortunately for him, the general consensus is that religion will always be entwined in this thread.

*Hint* It's most likely not ethical.

Author Topic: Is It Ethical?  (Read 319669 times)

Offline motec bb

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Re: Is It Ethical?
« Reply #2535 on: December 17, 2020, 11:04:02 AM »
Say you buy something online for $50, use it, but then see the identical item later somewhere else for $25, can you buy the $25 item and return it to the place you bought the $50 item?
Ethical?

( the $25 item is identical and brand new)

Does מיגו apply?

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Re: Is It Ethical?
« Reply #2536 on: December 17, 2020, 03:02:11 PM »
Say you buy something online for $50, use it, but then see the identical item later somewhere else for $25, can you buy the $25 item and return it to the place you bought the $50 item?
Ethical?

( the $25 item is identical and brand new)

Does מיגו apply?
Halachically I don't know. The kinyan is most probably on the exact item.

Ethically - I'd be comfortable doing that

Offline Der Deutsche Jude

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Re: Is It Ethical?
« Reply #2537 on: December 18, 2020, 09:00:07 AM »
Say you buy something online for $50, use it, but then see the identical item later somewhere else for $25, can you buy the $25 item and return it to the place you bought the $50 item?
Ethical?

( the $25 item is identical and brand new)

Does מיגו apply?
Not comfortable with that ethically, because the only way to have used it for those few days was to have bought it from the $50 place. But if the $25 place had the sale all along - Id have to think about it.

Offline R.A.T.

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Re: Is It Ethical?
« Reply #2538 on: December 18, 2020, 10:47:25 AM »
Say you buy something online for $50, use it, but then see the identical item later somewhere else for $25, can you buy the $25 item and return it to the place you bought the $50 item?
Ethical?
Buying something at one place and returning it to another place is not only unethical but illegal.

Offline S209

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Re: Is It Ethical?
« Reply #2539 on: December 18, 2020, 12:06:40 PM »
Buying something at one place and returning it to another place is not only unethical but illegal.
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Offline yungermanchik

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Re: Is It Ethical?
« Reply #2540 on: December 18, 2020, 12:38:10 PM »
Say you buy something online for $50, use it, but then see the identical item later somewhere else for $25, can you buy the $25 item and return it to the place you bought the $50 item?
Ethical?

( the $25 item is identical and brand new)

Does מיגו apply?
https://businesshalacha.com/en/business-weekly/archive/577?selected=0
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Average people talk about things
BIG PEOPLE TALK ABOUT IDEAS.

Offline ckmk47

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Re: Is It Ethical?
« Reply #2541 on: December 18, 2020, 03:01:02 PM »
https://businesshalacha.com/en/business-weekly/archive/577?selected=0
I don't think that halacha automatically applies to the OP question here.
A hotel minibar is selling you convenience.
The $50 seller has a set return policy. He gets back the same item he sold you. Even if it's not he exact one he sold you.



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Re: Is It Ethical?
« Reply #2542 on: December 18, 2020, 03:23:56 PM »
In general in Halacha we say מה לי הן מה לי דמיהם so an identical replacement will satisfy an obligation to return an the item, however I guess one can argue the תנאי to be able to cancel the transaction is that you don't keep the original item, in which case the original transaction will be wrongly voided by misleading and returning a replacement.

If the original item is opened, and the replacement is in better condition, I would imagine we will say אנן סהדי that the merchant would rather you keep the original and return a better replacement, especially if the merchant has an easy way of determining by barcode etc if it really is the original and neglects to do so.

One thing that's important to remember though is that מזונותיו של אדם קצובים לו מראשית השנה; making and saving money is only Hishtadlus. Doing something wrong isn't hishtadlus and won't result in having more than money.
״וזה כלל גדול: שישנא אדם כל דבר שקר. וכל מה שיוסיף שנאה לדרכי השקר יוסיף אהבה לתורה.״ - אורחות צדיקים

Offline yungermanchik

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Re: Is It Ethical?
« Reply #2543 on: December 19, 2020, 07:38:05 PM »
I don't think that halacha automatically applies to the OP question here.
A hotel minibar is selling you convenience.
The $50 seller has a set return policy. He gets back the same item he sold you. Even if it's not he exact one he sold you.
IMHO almost every time you buy some thing for a higher price, there is some sort of convenience built in to the price. Whether it's a Brick & Mortar store vs. shipping, bigger selection, location, or nicer store, there's a reason that they can get away with that price (and possibly that you bought it there to begin with).

Just for an (extreme) example: One year, my window unit A/C broke on one of the hottest days of the year. So, I ran to Home Depot (which is the closest store that I knew would have the right BTU) and bought it for $550. I immediately installed it. If I would then find the same model online (minimum 2 days shipping) for $450 and return that one to Home Depot, that would be taking advantage of HD's convenience and not paying for it which is the same as the BHI case of the Hotel mini-bar. 
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Re: Is It Ethical?
« Reply #2544 on: December 19, 2020, 09:26:48 PM »
https://businesshalacha.com/en/business-weekly/archive/577?selected=0
There's no returns by a hotel. They're selling you something for money and not willing to take an item back over here the online store is willing to take an item back.
In general in Halacha we say מה לי הן מה לי דמיהם so an identical replacement will satisfy an obligation to return an the item, however I guess one can argue the תנאי to be able to cancel the transaction is that you don't keep the original item, in which case the original transaction will be wrongly voided by misleading and returning a replacement.


Where and when would such a tnai be implied?

Is returning something a new kinyan or being mevatel a kinyan?

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Re: Is It Ethical?
« Reply #2545 on: December 19, 2020, 09:31:09 PM »
There's no returns by a hotel. They're selling you something for money and not willing to take an item back over here the online store is willing to take an item back.
Where and when would such a tnai be implied?

Is returning something a new kinyan or being mevatel a kinyan?
The return policy, prima facie, is a תנאי in the sale that the buyer can void the original transaction by returning the item and receiving a refund in return. One proof it isn't a commitment to buy back the item, is that the original transaction isn't subject to sales tax anymore. The real proof is that if it was commitment to buy back the item, the merchant wouldn't be required to honor their commitment if not for the fact the original transaction is voided if they don't fulfill their commitments, so you're once again at a voided transaction and not a buyback.
״וזה כלל גדול: שישנא אדם כל דבר שקר. וכל מה שיוסיף שנאה לדרכי השקר יוסיף אהבה לתורה.״ - אורחות צדיקים

Offline shmuelb

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Re: Is It Ethical?
« Reply #2546 on: December 20, 2020, 03:26:25 AM »
In general in Halacha we say מה לי הן מה לי דמיהם so an identical replacement will satisfy an obligation to return an the item,

But do you say מה לי הן מה לי הן and do you say מה לי דמיהם מה לי הן ? You are giving them another item in order for them to pay you back, not giving them cash. One obvious difference is that with cash, they have the cash, but with the item, they may not end up selling it. Even if they sell it, they have costs involved in the sale etc. so basically IMHO it is wrong to say it works backwards, so you can replace an item with cash, but you can not replace an item with another item, or replace cash with another item.

One thing that's important to remember though is that מזונותיו של אדם קצובים לו מראשית השנה; making and saving money is only Hishtadlus. Doing something wrong isn't hishtadlus and won't result in having more than money.
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siyag lachachma :-)

Offline shmuelb

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Re: Is It Ethical?
« Reply #2547 on: December 20, 2020, 03:34:52 AM »
I don't believe that's a correct analogy, since majority of times the coupon codes and discounts benefit the seller, them choosing a generic code to send out to all their card members not only helps the card members feel more exclusive, but additionally those who get their hands on the code will think it's a better deal then if they got the code themselves. It's a much more effective marketing strategy IMO.

I respectfully don't agree with you. From a personal perspective, I sell items all year and have around a 3rd of the buyers use promo codes for discounts. We do not market the codes to people who would be buying and paying full price. That is cannibalizing profit. We only want people to use a code if they would not have purchased otherwise. So to say that the majority of codes benefit the seller is not relevant. You are stealing money from the seller if this code was supposed to be exclusively for a specific group of people and you are using the code. If an airline gives their sales team or travel agents a 90% off discount, you can use it because "the majority of times..."??  ??? And circling back to the earlier claim - if they wanted, they can more strongly enforce the qualification of the code usage, I am at loss to understand how that makes it permitted to steal just because others do it and they left open the option by mistake Of course, sometimes they are happy with anyone using the code. The question is in a case where you think or know that they do not want you to use the code, just you think it is fine because they did not more strongly enforce it.
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Re: Is It Ethical?
« Reply #2548 on: December 20, 2020, 09:51:42 AM »
But do you say מה לי הן מה לי הן and do you say מה לי דמיהם מה לי הן ? You are giving them another item in order for them to pay you back, not giving them cash. One obvious difference is that with cash, they have the cash, but with the item, they may not end up selling it. Even if they sell it, they have costs involved in the sale etc. so basically IMHO it is wrong to say it works backwards, so you can replace an item with cash, but you can not replace an item with another item, or replace cash with another item.
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You personally would not take back a perfectly similar item if a customer wants to return something?
Which costs are extra? Shipping/ fulfillment?

If the item was sealed you would swallow those costs so now that there's a technicality you won't?

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Re: Is It Ethical?
« Reply #2549 on: December 20, 2020, 10:04:21 AM »
I respectfully don't agree with you. From a personal perspective, I sell items all year and have around a 3rd of the buyers use promo codes for discounts. We do not market the codes to people who would be buying and paying full price. That is cannibalizing profit. We only want people to use a code if they would not have purchased otherwise. So to say that the majority of codes benefit the seller is not relevant. You are stealing money from the seller if this code was supposed to be exclusively for a specific group of people and you are using the code. If an airline gives their sales team or travel agents a 90% off discount, you can use it because "the majority of times..."??  ??? And circling back to the earlier claim - if they wanted, they can more strongly enforce the qualification of the code usage, I am at loss to understand how that makes it permitted to steal just because others do it and they left open the option by mistake Of course, sometimes they are happy with anyone using the code. The question is in a case where you think or know that they do not want you to use the code, just you think it is fine because they did not more strongly enforce it.
I'm not sure what business your running, but an average of a 3rd of your buyers using promo codes sounds like your benefiting from the use of those codes. And hopefully those are costumers which would have otherwise gone somewhere else, and are now coming to you.

Let's take the example you gave. An airline gives out a 90% off code and they make the code "90OFF", I would be extremely shocked if that code managed to stay just between their sales team. Obviously if your talking about a small grocery store that would be a different story.

As you yourself mentioned, it would depend what they were thinking when they made the codes. IMO no major established company makes a generic code without taking into account that it will probably go around the likes of SD etc..

If I may add, from the mere fact that it's a question, means it isn't clear if it's stealing (if it is please bring a source), it's quite easy to call people stealing but I don't believe it necessary.