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This thread is to discuss whether people feel that something is unethical, not to find out what the law*/T&C says.

Any Halachic questions should be posted here.

*According to CountValentine this includes religion, but unfortunately for him, the general consensus is that religion will always be entwined in this thread.

*Hint* If you have to ask, It's most likely not ethical.
« Last edited by UKinNYS on April 13, 2021, 11:51:23 AM »

Author Topic: Is It Ethical?  (Read 556247 times)

Offline yungermanchik

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Re: Is It Ethical?
« Reply #2540 on: December 18, 2020, 12:38:10 PM »
Say you buy something online for $50, use it, but then see the identical item later somewhere else for $25, can you buy the $25 item and return it to the place you bought the $50 item?
Ethical?

( the $25 item is identical and brand new)

Does מיגו apply?
https://businesshalacha.com/en/business-weekly/archive/577?selected=0
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Offline ckmk47

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Re: Is It Ethical?
« Reply #2541 on: December 18, 2020, 03:01:02 PM »
https://businesshalacha.com/en/business-weekly/archive/577?selected=0
I don't think that halacha automatically applies to the OP question here.
A hotel minibar is selling you convenience.
The $50 seller has a set return policy. He gets back the same item he sold you. Even if it's not he exact one he sold you.


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Offline PlatinumGuy

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Re: Is It Ethical?
« Reply #2542 on: December 18, 2020, 03:23:56 PM »
In general in Halacha we say מה לי הן מה לי דמיהם so an identical replacement will satisfy an obligation to return an the item, however I guess one can argue the תנאי to be able to cancel the transaction is that you don't keep the original item, in which case the original transaction will be wrongly voided by misleading and returning a replacement.

If the original item is opened, and the replacement is in better condition, I would imagine we will say אנן סהדי that the merchant would rather you keep the original and return a better replacement, especially if the merchant has an easy way of determining by barcode etc if it really is the original and neglects to do so.

One thing that's important to remember though is that מזונותיו של אדם קצובים לו מראשית השנה; making and saving money is only Hishtadlus. Doing something wrong isn't hishtadlus and won't result in having more than money.
״וזה כלל גדול: שישנא אדם כל דבר שקר. וכל מה שיוסיף שנאה לדרכי השקר – יוסיף אהבה לתורה.״ - אורחות צדיקים

Offline yungermanchik

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Re: Is It Ethical?
« Reply #2543 on: December 19, 2020, 07:38:05 PM »
I don't think that halacha automatically applies to the OP question here.
A hotel minibar is selling you convenience.
The $50 seller has a set return policy. He gets back the same item he sold you. Even if it's not he exact one he sold you.
IMHO almost every time you buy some thing for a higher price, there is some sort of convenience built in to the price. Whether it's a Brick & Mortar store vs. shipping, bigger selection, location, or nicer store, there's a reason that they can get away with that price (and possibly that you bought it there to begin with).

Just for an (extreme) example: One year, my window unit A/C broke on one of the hottest days of the year. So, I ran to Home Depot (which is the closest store that I knew would have the right BTU) and bought it for $550. I immediately installed it. If I would then find the same model online (minimum 2 days shipping) for $450 and return that one to Home Depot, that would be taking advantage of HD's convenience and not paying for it which is the same as the BHI case of the Hotel mini-bar. 
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Re: Is It Ethical?
« Reply #2544 on: December 19, 2020, 09:26:48 PM »
https://businesshalacha.com/en/business-weekly/archive/577?selected=0
There's no returns by a hotel. They're selling you something for money and not willing to take an item back over here the online store is willing to take an item back.
In general in Halacha we say מה לי הן מה לי דמיהם so an identical replacement will satisfy an obligation to return an the item, however I guess one can argue the תנאי to be able to cancel the transaction is that you don't keep the original item, in which case the original transaction will be wrongly voided by misleading and returning a replacement.


Where and when would such a tnai be implied?

Is returning something a new kinyan or being mevatel a kinyan?
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Re: Is It Ethical?
« Reply #2545 on: December 19, 2020, 09:31:09 PM »
There's no returns by a hotel. They're selling you something for money and not willing to take an item back over here the online store is willing to take an item back.
Where and when would such a tnai be implied?

Is returning something a new kinyan or being mevatel a kinyan?
The return policy, prima facie, is a תנאי in the sale that the buyer can void the original transaction by returning the item and receiving a refund in return. One proof it isn't a commitment to buy back the item, is that the original transaction isn't subject to sales tax anymore. The real proof is that if it was commitment to buy back the item, the merchant wouldn't be required to honor their commitment if not for the fact the original transaction is voided if they don't fulfill their commitments, so you're once again at a voided transaction and not a buyback.
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Offline shmuelb

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Re: Is It Ethical?
« Reply #2546 on: December 20, 2020, 03:26:25 AM »
In general in Halacha we say מה לי הן מה לי דמיהם so an identical replacement will satisfy an obligation to return an the item,

But do you say מה לי הן מה לי הן and do you say מה לי דמיהם מה לי הן ? You are giving them another item in order for them to pay you back, not giving them cash. One obvious difference is that with cash, they have the cash, but with the item, they may not end up selling it. Even if they sell it, they have costs involved in the sale etc. so basically IMHO it is wrong to say it works backwards, so you can replace an item with cash, but you can not replace an item with another item, or replace cash with another item.

One thing that's important to remember though is that מזונותיו של אדם קצובים לו מראשית השנה; making and saving money is only Hishtadlus. Doing something wrong isn't hishtadlus and won't result in having more than money.
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Offline shmuelb

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Re: Is It Ethical?
« Reply #2547 on: December 20, 2020, 03:34:52 AM »
I don't believe that's a correct analogy, since majority of times the coupon codes and discounts benefit the seller, them choosing a generic code to send out to all their card members not only helps the card members feel more exclusive, but additionally those who get their hands on the code will think it's a better deal then if they got the code themselves. It's a much more effective marketing strategy IMO.

I respectfully don't agree with you. From a personal perspective, I sell items all year and have around a 3rd of the buyers use promo codes for discounts. We do not market the codes to people who would be buying and paying full price. That is cannibalizing profit. We only want people to use a code if they would not have purchased otherwise. So to say that the majority of codes benefit the seller is not relevant. You are stealing money from the seller if this code was supposed to be exclusively for a specific group of people and you are using the code. If an airline gives their sales team or travel agents a 90% off discount, you can use it because "the majority of times..."??  ??? And circling back to the earlier claim - if they wanted, they can more strongly enforce the qualification of the code usage, I am at loss to understand how that makes it permitted to steal just because others do it and they left open the option by mistake Of course, sometimes they are happy with anyone using the code. The question is in a case where you think or know that they do not want you to use the code, just you think it is fine because they did not more strongly enforce it.
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Re: Is It Ethical?
« Reply #2548 on: December 20, 2020, 09:51:42 AM »
But do you say מה לי הן מה לי הן and do you say מה לי דמיהם מה לי הן ? You are giving them another item in order for them to pay you back, not giving them cash. One obvious difference is that with cash, they have the cash, but with the item, they may not end up selling it. Even if they sell it, they have costs involved in the sale etc. so basically IMHO it is wrong to say it works backwards, so you can replace an item with cash, but you can not replace an item with another item, or replace cash with another item.
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You personally would not take back a perfectly similar item if a customer wants to return something?
Which costs are extra? Shipping/ fulfillment?

If the item was sealed you would swallow those costs so now that there's a technicality you won't?
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Offline Yo ssi

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Re: Is It Ethical?
« Reply #2549 on: December 20, 2020, 10:04:21 AM »
I respectfully don't agree with you. From a personal perspective, I sell items all year and have around a 3rd of the buyers use promo codes for discounts. We do not market the codes to people who would be buying and paying full price. That is cannibalizing profit. We only want people to use a code if they would not have purchased otherwise. So to say that the majority of codes benefit the seller is not relevant. You are stealing money from the seller if this code was supposed to be exclusively for a specific group of people and you are using the code. If an airline gives their sales team or travel agents a 90% off discount, you can use it because "the majority of times..."??  ??? And circling back to the earlier claim - if they wanted, they can more strongly enforce the qualification of the code usage, I am at loss to understand how that makes it permitted to steal just because others do it and they left open the option by mistake Of course, sometimes they are happy with anyone using the code. The question is in a case where you think or know that they do not want you to use the code, just you think it is fine because they did not more strongly enforce it.
I'm not sure what business your running, but an average of a 3rd of your buyers using promo codes sounds like your benefiting from the use of those codes. And hopefully those are costumers which would have otherwise gone somewhere else, and are now coming to you.

Let's take the example you gave. An airline gives out a 90% off code and they make the code "90OFF", I would be extremely shocked if that code managed to stay just between their sales team. Obviously if your talking about a small grocery store that would be a different story.

As you yourself mentioned, it would depend what they were thinking when they made the codes. IMO no major established company makes a generic code without taking into account that it will probably go around the likes of SD etc..

If I may add, from the mere fact that it's a question, means it isn't clear if it's stealing (if it is please bring a source), it's quite easy to call people stealing but I don't believe it necessary.
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Re: Is It Ethical?
« Reply #2550 on: December 20, 2020, 01:38:30 PM »
Apropos of the above, here is this quote from today's news here

Quote
When caught, Myers agreed to send a check to reimburse the county for $27,000, but she later changed her mind and blamed others for her reckless spending.

It’s not my fault; it’s your fault because y’all weren’t monitoring my card,” Myers allegedly said.

The point is - in a case when you know that the company intended that the specific discount be ONLY for specific people, are you saying it is OK to use it because you guessed it and they did not set up checks or blocks to curtail that usage?

Our promo codes are shared by other organizations to their lists, which are people who we are not targeting as they are not on our lists. Of course we are gaining for that. But we do not want our regular readers to use the discount codes, we want them to pay full price. They are already getting our emails and are aware of our product so they are willing to pay.

If new people pay 20% less - that is a gain.
If existing clients pay 20% less instead of full price - that is a loss.
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Offline Yo ssi

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Re: Is It Ethical?
« Reply #2551 on: December 20, 2020, 02:20:55 PM »
The point is - in a case when you know that the company intended that the specific discount be ONLY for specific people, are you saying it is OK to use it because you guessed it and they did not set up checks or blocks to curtail that usage?
It's definitely not OK to use anything because there isn't a block or fence around it. My point in my previous post was, any well established company using a generic code, IMO is doing so on purpose and has thought of the fact that it will get around. (POC many well established companies do use unique codes, which if those should be publicly shared is another discussion)
Meaning, they are expecting non "cardholder" users (as an example) to use the code as well. Would they prefer you buy the item without the code? Definitely!
Would lots of non cardholder users buy the product if not for this code? I would say those that are paying full price won't wait around for a sale or code and will buy it when they need it.
« Last Edit: December 20, 2020, 02:25:09 PM by Yo ssi »
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Re: Is It Ethical?
« Reply #2552 on: December 20, 2020, 03:51:15 PM »
It's definitely not OK to use anything because there isn't a block or fence around it. My point in my previous post was, any well established company using a generic code, IMO is doing so on purpose and has thought of the fact that it will get around. (POC many well established companies do use unique codes, which if those should be publicly shared is another discussion)
Meaning, they are expecting non "cardholder" users (as an example) to use the code as well. Would they prefer you buy the item without the code? Definitely!
Would lots of non cardholder users buy the product if not for this code? I would say those that are paying full price won't wait around for a sale or code and will buy it when they need it.

I will add to this that sometimes a retailer will offer a promo code to the cardholders of a certain bank because they will get some benefit from the bank in this code's contribution to the bank's marketing. They are just as happy for it to be available to others and often there are similar codes for the cardholders of other banks or via other mediums.
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Re: Is It Ethical?
« Reply #2553 on: December 20, 2020, 08:52:46 PM »
I was ordering from a restaurant online and had a generic code for 10% (xxxxxxxxxx10) off that they routinely email me, during checkout I tried using other similar codes (xxxxxxxxx15) which worked for 15% off. i kept playing with it and found a $25 off code with no minimum. Is it ethical to use the code I found?

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Re: Is It Ethical?
« Reply #2554 on: December 21, 2020, 07:17:45 AM »
I was ordering from a restaurant online and had a generic code for 10% (xxxxxxxxxx10) off that they routinely email me, during checkout I tried using other similar codes (xxxxxxxxx15) which worked for 15% off. i kept playing with it and found a $25 off code with no minimum. Is it ethical to use the code I found?

I would say legal but unethical. Don't even know if there would be an issue in Halacha.

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Re: Is It Ethical?
« Reply #2555 on: December 21, 2020, 09:34:55 AM »
I'm not sure what business your running, but an average of a 3rd of your buyers using promo codes sounds like your benefiting from the use of those codes. And hopefully those are costumers which would have otherwise gone somewhere else, and are now coming to you.
It’s called price discrimination, and it’s a basic move in economics. You want people to pay the maximum amount they are willing to pay, so you make hard-to-find coupons for customers who only buy things at discounts while sell at a higher “retail” price to the majority of customers who are willing to pay full price.
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Re: Is It Ethical?
« Reply #2556 on: December 21, 2020, 09:52:52 AM »
It’s called price discrimination, and it’s a basic move in economics. You want people to pay the maximum amount they are willing to pay, so you make hard-to-find coupons for customers who only buy things at discounts while sell at a higher “retail” price to the majority of customers who are willing to pay full price.
While we're at it, is price discrimination ethical?

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Re: Is It Ethical?
« Reply #2557 on: December 21, 2020, 09:54:40 AM »
While we're at it, is price discrimination ethical?
Are coupons ethical? Is selling at auction ethical?
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Re: Is It Ethical?
« Reply #2558 on: December 21, 2020, 09:57:26 AM »
Are coupons ethical? Is selling at auction ethical?
Careful, CM might pop up to tell you to answer the question instead of asking your own.

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Re: Is It Ethical?
« Reply #2559 on: December 21, 2020, 10:00:40 AM »
Careful, CM might pop up to tell you to answer the question instead of asking your own.
He’s already popped up in this discussion.
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