Topic Wiki

This thread is to discuss whether people feel that something is unethical, not to find out what the law*/T&C says.

Any Halachic questions should be posted here.

*According to CountValentine this includes religion, but unfortunately for him, the general consensus is that religion will always be entwined in this thread.

*Hint* If you have to ask, It's most likely not ethical.
« Last edited by UKinNYS on April 13, 2021, 11:51:23 AM »

Author Topic: Is It Ethical?  (Read 556437 times)

Offline mevinyavin

  • Dansdeals Lifetime Platinum Elite
  • *******
  • Join Date: Sep 2022
  • Posts: 1628
  • Total likes: 2180
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 1
  • Gender: Male
    • View Profile
    • Laptop help/deal request template
  • Location: Yerushalayim
  • Programs: Windows 10 and 11 Home, Word/Excel/Publisher 2021, Wordweb, McGill English Dictionary of Rhyme, VLC, Torat Emet, 7-Zip, Lightshot, Calibre, FDM, FreeFileSync, Teracopy, Handbreak, Lightshot
Re: Is It Ethical?
« Reply #2820 on: April 14, 2023, 11:00:48 AM »
IMHO if it will cause them tzar, you don't have the right to bring it up even if it is your chiyuv to return the money. Sounds similar to the machlokes about asking someone for mechila for LH you said about them when they don't even know you said it, though there it is a machlokes anyway, and also here it isn't your fault. But I would think if tzar would be caused you would have to find a different mehalech.
I might be able to ask a posek in a few minutes. Stay tuned.

ETA: R' Berkovits said that since the money wasn't gezel when you got it, you aren't mechuyev to return it in a way that they are aware of it. So he said you can find a way of getting them the money that qualifies as mishtamer (not just leaving it out, such as perhaps putting it in their bank account). He said you shouldn't return the money directly if it will be meorer tzar.
« Last Edit: April 14, 2023, 11:28:30 AM by mevinyavin »
Quote from: ExGingi
Echo chambers are boring and don't contribute much to deeper thinking and understanding!

Online aygart

  • Dansdeals Lifetime 10K Presidential Platinum Elite
  • *******
  • Join Date: May 2008
  • Posts: 17399
  • Total likes: 14339
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 14
    • View Profile
    • Lower Watt Energy Brokers
  • Programs: www.lowerwatt.com
Re: Is It Ethical?
« Reply #2821 on: April 14, 2023, 11:39:33 AM »
Is it clear that Halacha requires the money to be returned?
Feelings don't care about your facts

Offline mevinyavin

  • Dansdeals Lifetime Platinum Elite
  • *******
  • Join Date: Sep 2022
  • Posts: 1628
  • Total likes: 2180
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 1
  • Gender: Male
    • View Profile
    • Laptop help/deal request template
  • Location: Yerushalayim
  • Programs: Windows 10 and 11 Home, Word/Excel/Publisher 2021, Wordweb, McGill English Dictionary of Rhyme, VLC, Torat Emet, 7-Zip, Lightshot, Calibre, FDM, FreeFileSync, Teracopy, Handbreak, Lightshot
Re: Is It Ethical?
« Reply #2822 on: April 15, 2023, 12:55:08 PM »
Is it clear that Halacha requires the money to be returned?
Dunno. That's what he said, though. If anything you may be able to take only peol botul like the botei din paskined during corona, but I was also wondering about this over Shabbos and I plan on following up when I get the chance.
Quote from: ExGingi
Echo chambers are boring and don't contribute much to deeper thinking and understanding!

Offline yerushabubby

  • Dansdeals Gold Elite
  • ***
  • Join Date: Feb 2021
  • Posts: 156
  • Total likes: 207
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 0
    • View Profile
Re: Is It Ethical?
« Reply #2823 on: April 15, 2023, 04:27:20 PM »
I am not at all sure whether I am required to return it, but I don't feel comfortable keeping it.  I will try to find a way to return it indirectly, although at the moment I am not sure how to go about doing so.

Offline Definitions

  • Dansdeals Lifetime Platinum Elite
  • *******
  • Join Date: Jan 2018
  • Posts: 1748
  • Total likes: 480
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 3
    • View Profile
Re: Is It Ethical?
« Reply #2824 on: April 15, 2023, 09:08:11 PM »
I wouldn't return it indirectly, although I don't either know the best way to return it to minimize them getting hurt. But I definitely would return the whole sum.
My Tapatalk notifications don't always work.

Offline YitzyS

  • Dansdeals Lifetime Presidential Platinum Elite
  • *********
  • Join Date: Jan 2015
  • Posts: 5552
  • Total likes: 13697
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 34
  • Gender: Male
    • View Profile
  • Location: Lakewood, NJ
Re: Is It Ethical?
« Reply #2825 on: April 15, 2023, 09:44:18 PM »
I think that the best way to get it back to them is during a conversation about the child. You can stop by the house and tell them that you started a new initiative in the group Le'ilui Nishmas the child, such as answering Amen or making brachos out loud. You can show them pictures of the initiative in action, with pictures of the signs you hung up. If applicable, you can also say over a nice story about the kid, or something else about them that was special. Then, as a 'by the way', you can mention that you have the money and you would want to return it, but if they'd rather, you can use it for something that would be le'ilui nishmas the child.

By doing this, you can bring a nechama in some way to the family, who see that the memory of their child is being honored. Although that may be bringing up pain, I doubt that is the wrong thing to do. And then you can take care of the money as a side point, which is doubtful to cause more pain. It's totally different than just calling them up and saying "hey, here's back your money because your kid died."

But again, maybe run this by Daas Torah. BH, I have little personal experience with grieving, so I cannot say what it feels like to be in that situation.

Online aygart

  • Dansdeals Lifetime 10K Presidential Platinum Elite
  • *******
  • Join Date: May 2008
  • Posts: 17399
  • Total likes: 14339
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 14
    • View Profile
    • Lower Watt Energy Brokers
  • Programs: www.lowerwatt.com
Re: Is It Ethical?
« Reply #2826 on: April 15, 2023, 10:25:26 PM »
I am not at all sure whether I am required to return it, but I don't feel comfortable keeping it.  I will try to find a way to return it indirectly, although at the moment I am not sure how to go about doing so.
If you do not need to return it then you can use it to do something or dedicate something in the child's memory.
Feelings don't care about your facts

Offline ckmk47

  • Dansdeals Lifetime Presidential Platinum Elite
  • *********
  • Join Date: Aug 2012
  • Posts: 7961
  • Total likes: 1044
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 3
  • Gender: Female
    • View Profile
  • Location: brooklyn
Re: Is It Ethical?
« Reply #2827 on: April 16, 2023, 12:11:25 AM »
At some point the parents are going to note to themselves that they prepaid for the month. 
I think you should return it with a warm note saying how cute she was and how much you enjoyed having her.
If you have an anecdote or pictures (perhaps she was too young for that) include it. 
Like menachem avel, which you presumably did.
My favorite cause: cssy.org

Offline mevinyavin

  • Dansdeals Lifetime Platinum Elite
  • *******
  • Join Date: Sep 2022
  • Posts: 1628
  • Total likes: 2180
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 1
  • Gender: Male
    • View Profile
    • Laptop help/deal request template
  • Location: Yerushalayim
  • Programs: Windows 10 and 11 Home, Word/Excel/Publisher 2021, Wordweb, McGill English Dictionary of Rhyme, VLC, Torat Emet, 7-Zip, Lightshot, Calibre, FDM, FreeFileSync, Teracopy, Handbreak, Lightshot
Re: Is It Ethical?
« Reply #2828 on: April 16, 2023, 02:23:33 AM »
Is it clear that Halacha requires the money to be returned?
C"M posek I spoke to this morning says you definitely don't have to return it (machlokes poskim=whoever is the muchzak). However, when I spoke to RYBs he never mentioned this possibility. Maybe he was operating on the assumption that you wanted to return it.
Either way, I read the posts about returning it in a nice way, but R' Berkovits was clear: if you have any chshash at all that pain will be caused, you cannot return it. If, on the other hand, any of the above suggestions are guaranteed to not cause pain (I guess we can't estimate this for you), I suppose you could.
Quote from: ExGingi
Echo chambers are boring and don't contribute much to deeper thinking and understanding!

Offline yerushabubby

  • Dansdeals Gold Elite
  • ***
  • Join Date: Feb 2021
  • Posts: 156
  • Total likes: 207
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 0
    • View Profile
Re: Is It Ethical?
« Reply #2829 on: April 16, 2023, 08:01:44 AM »
Thank you to everyone for the ideas - I will have to see what will work best.

Online yfr bachur

  • Dansdeals Lifetime Platinum Elite
  • *******
  • Join Date: Sep 2018
  • Posts: 1059
  • Total likes: 1248
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 2
  • Gender: Male
    • View Profile
  • Location: Yerusholayim -> נחליאל
Re: Is It Ethical?
« Reply #2830 on: April 16, 2023, 12:34:26 PM »
not exactly an ethics issue, but rather a dilemma -

I was watching a child who was unfortunately niftar.  The parents already paid me for the month, but the child was niftar before the first work day of that month,  I would like to return the money, but a friend is concerned that it may cause more tzaar to the parents - the last thing that I would want to do!  Does anyone have any ideas on how I can return the money without causing them more pain?

As a father who buried an infant, I think that
At some point the parents are going to note to themselves that they prepaid for the month. 
I think you should return it with a warm note saying how cute she was and how much you enjoyed having her.
If you have an anecdote or pictures (perhaps she was too young for that) include it. 
Like menachem avel, which you presumably did.
is the correct approach.
I can't speak for other people, but I can't see why it should give more pain.

Offline yerushabubby

  • Dansdeals Gold Elite
  • ***
  • Join Date: Feb 2021
  • Posts: 156
  • Total likes: 207
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 0
    • View Profile
Re: Is It Ethical?
« Reply #2831 on: April 17, 2023, 09:49:49 AM »
not exactly an ethics issue, but rather a dilemma -

I was watching a child who was unfortunately niftar.  The parents already paid me for the month, but the child was niftar before the first work day of that month,  I would like to return the money, but a friend is concerned that it may cause more tzaar to the parents - the last thing that I would want to do!  Does anyone have any ideas on how I can return the money without causing them more pain?

The mother stopped by today to thank me for taking care of her baby, so I gave her the envelope with my condolences.  Thank you everyone for your helpful advice and comments!

Offline chinagel

  • Dansdeals Presidential Platinum Elite
  • ********
  • Join Date: Mar 2014
  • Posts: 3863
  • Total likes: 388
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 1
    • View Profile
  • Location: brooklyn
Re: Is It Ethical?
« Reply #2832 on: May 09, 2023, 01:17:53 PM »
Bought a battery from AutoZone. Ended up not needing it. When I tried to return, they claimed it was installed so they can't accept. (From speaking to others, it seems this is there way of doing business.)
Grounds for a dispute? It most definitely was not installed.

Offline JMHO

  • Dansdeals Lifetime Platinum Elite
  • *******
  • Join Date: Apr 2020
  • Posts: 1419
  • Total likes: 1239
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 0
    • View Profile
  • Location: NYC
Re: Is It Ethical?
« Reply #2833 on: May 09, 2023, 01:32:20 PM »
Bought a battery from AutoZone. Ended up not needing it. When I tried to return, they claimed it was installed so they can't accept. (From speaking to others, it seems this is there way of doing business.)
Grounds for a dispute? It most definitely was not installed.
Why not?

Offline chinagel

  • Dansdeals Presidential Platinum Elite
  • ********
  • Join Date: Mar 2014
  • Posts: 3863
  • Total likes: 388
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 1
    • View Profile
  • Location: brooklyn
Re: Is It Ethical?
« Reply #2834 on: May 09, 2023, 01:35:33 PM »
Why not?
IDK. Is denying a return grounds for dispute?

Offline YitzyS

  • Dansdeals Lifetime Presidential Platinum Elite
  • *********
  • Join Date: Jan 2015
  • Posts: 5552
  • Total likes: 13697
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 34
  • Gender: Male
    • View Profile
  • Location: Lakewood, NJ
Re: Is It Ethical?
« Reply #2835 on: May 09, 2023, 02:11:05 PM »
Bought a battery from AutoZone. Ended up not needing it. When I tried to return, they claimed it was installed so they can't accept. (From speaking to others, it seems this is there way of doing business.)
Grounds for a dispute? It most definitely was not installed.
Is your question about the store or the credit card company?

If it's the store, I think it depends on their policy. If they accept returns and now they are not, I think it's fair game for a dispute.

If your question is about the credit card company, you can always call them and ask them outright if this story qualifies for a dispute.

Online etech0

  • Dansdeals Lifetime 10K Presidential Platinum Elite
  • *******
  • Join Date: Dec 2013
  • Posts: 12862
  • Total likes: 3317
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 1
    • View Profile
  • Location: not lakewood
  • Programs: DDF
Re: Is It Ethical?
« Reply #2836 on: May 09, 2023, 02:13:58 PM »
Is your question about the store or the credit card company?

If it's the store, I think it depends on their policy. If they accept returns and now they are not, I think it's fair game for a dispute.

If your question is about the credit card company, you can always call them and ask them outright if this story qualifies for a dispute.
And if it's amex, you could also ask if it would qualify for return protection
Workflowy. You won't know what you're missing until you try it.

Offline Definitions

  • Dansdeals Lifetime Platinum Elite
  • *******
  • Join Date: Jan 2018
  • Posts: 1748
  • Total likes: 480
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 3
    • View Profile
Re: Is It Ethical?
« Reply #2837 on: June 28, 2023, 07:00:58 PM »
2 boys around 14 or 15 asked me to buy a lighter for them since the store didn't let. What would you do? I told them I'm not comfortable buying it for them.

In general I like that attitude and hope they continue to be that way and don't change. I wish I had a bolder personality to clarify that I really don't care if they smoke other than the fact that it affects their mood if they get addicted. I'm not even sure if that's the only thing that I don't like about it.

I had the opportunity in the store and I had the opportunity when they got out (with the lighters). Alas I'm a chicken.
My Tapatalk notifications don't always work.

Offline JMHO

  • Dansdeals Lifetime Platinum Elite
  • *******
  • Join Date: Apr 2020
  • Posts: 1419
  • Total likes: 1239
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 0
    • View Profile
  • Location: NYC
Re: Is It Ethical?
« Reply #2838 on: June 28, 2023, 07:34:53 PM »
2 boys around 14 or 15 asked me to buy a lighter for them since the store didn't let.
Kids still smoke cigarettes? 'round here it's all vaping...

Offline Definitions

  • Dansdeals Lifetime Platinum Elite
  • *******
  • Join Date: Jan 2018
  • Posts: 1748
  • Total likes: 480
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 3
    • View Profile
Re: Is It Ethical?
« Reply #2839 on: June 28, 2023, 07:39:15 PM »
Kids still smoke cigarettes? 'round here it's all vaping...
I don't know. I should've asked them. Part of my regrets too...
My Tapatalk notifications don't always work.