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This thread is to discuss whether people feel that something is unethical, not to find out what the law*/T&C says.

Any Halachic questions should be posted here.

*According to CountValentine this includes religion, but unfortunately for him, the general consensus is that religion will always be entwined in this thread.

*Hint* If you have to ask, It's most likely not ethical.
« Last edited by UKinNYS on April 13, 2021, 11:51:23 AM »

Author Topic: Is It Ethical?  (Read 556234 times)

Offline Moishebatchy

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Re: Is It Ethical?
« Reply #560 on: January 08, 2013, 05:33:45 PM »
A restaurant chain has a loyalty club that you can join, for a small fee. Among the benefits, they offer a "birthday gift": during the entire month of your birthday, you receive a certain benefit (such as %10 discount, free dessert, or whatever). Your birthday is, say, in April; but upon making a quick calculation, you determine that you would get more value if your birthday was, say, in October. So you put down October 15 as your birthday. Is it ethical?

Arguments for: the restaurant chain really doesn't care when you were actually born; their marketing department bean counters have determined that it's a good idea to offer this benefit for one month of the year, and "your birth month" sounds way cooler than "pick a random month".

Arguments against: it is, after all, not your birthday...

Offline AJK

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Re: Is It Ethical?
« Reply #561 on: January 08, 2013, 07:17:57 PM »
Ethically? Problematic. You are, after all, lying. Not much of a question there.

But, I'm not sure it really makes any difference as you point out.
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Offline awardticket

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Re: Is It Ethical?
« Reply #562 on: January 08, 2013, 10:43:43 PM »
Same story would be with lying for bday etc when checking into hotels.

Offline Ergel

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Re: Is It Ethical?
« Reply #563 on: January 08, 2013, 10:49:21 PM »
Same story would be with lying for bday etc when checking into hotels.
Not really. That one is probably more clear cut (for the club you can only have one birthday, for the hotel you are requesting it extra times)
Life isn't about checking the boxes. Nobody cares.

Offline Fan of Dan

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Re: Is It Ethical?
« Reply #564 on: January 08, 2013, 11:02:41 PM »
Not really. That one is probably more clear cut (for the club you can only have one birthday, for the hotel you are requesting it extra times)
What if you go to a certain hotel only once per year?

Offline Menucha

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Re: Is It Ethical?
« Reply #565 on: January 09, 2013, 08:28:00 AM »
see "Aseres Hadibros". sheker. ethical?

as an added bonus: Chilul Hashem...

So heart warming to see how "our yidden" are looking to legitimate "kol davar ra"...

oy..

thats how it starts. next is some headlines on the NY Times... so much for "ethical". go for it. just please do not appeal in my shul for "Pidyon Shvuyim for legal help". we have had it.

Offline Ergel

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Re: Is It Ethical?
« Reply #566 on: January 09, 2013, 08:33:31 AM »
I happen to somewhat agree with you but when you talk like that no one is going to hear you
Life isn't about checking the boxes. Nobody cares.

Offline Menucha

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Re: Is It Ethical?
« Reply #567 on: January 09, 2013, 08:42:28 AM »
Ergel, recently there was a thread, were I discussed someone suggesting violating customs laws in Israel. Some shtreimel owner and Co. was making fun of honesty. what a low behavior.

then someone posted a link for frum ppl caught with iphones. can we stop NOW this chilul hashem, and behave as law abiding and contributing members of society?

are we growing on our forums the next NY Times Japan/ W.....man headline, or the next appeal for legal assistance for "nebach, they did not know it was illegal"?

and when you post such ideas, you are responsible for somewhat not as smart who may follow them.

Offline Ergel

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Re: Is It Ethical?
« Reply #568 on: January 09, 2013, 08:50:13 AM »
Ergel, recently there was a thread, were I discussed someone suggesting violating customs laws in Israel. Some shtreimel owner and Co. was making fun of honesty. what a low behavior.

then someone posted a link for frum ppl caught with iphones. can we stop NOW this chilul hashem, and behave as law abiding and contributing members of society?

are we growing on our forums the next NY Times Japan/ W.....man headline, or the next appeal for legal assistance for "nebach, they did not know it was illegal"?

and when you post such ideas, you are responsible for somewhat not as smart who may follow them.
Again, I mostly agree with you. But if you want anyone to hear you, oreven have a conversation with you, talking like an angry crazy man won't help
Life isn't about checking the boxes. Nobody cares.

Offline Fan of Dan

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Re: Is It Ethical?
« Reply #569 on: January 09, 2013, 09:20:16 AM »
Again, I mostly agree with you. But if you want anyone to hear you, oreven have a conversation with you, talking like an angry crazy man won't help
+ 1 I completely agree with that

Offline elizmm

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Re: Is It Ethical?
« Reply #570 on: January 09, 2013, 12:41:13 PM »
A restaurant chain has a loyalty club that you can join, for a small fee. Among the benefits, they offer a "birthday gift": during the entire month of your birthday, you receive a certain benefit (such as %10 discount, free dessert, or whatever). Your birthday is, say, in April; but upon making a quick calculation, you determine that you would get more value if your birthday was, say, in October. So you put down October 15 as your birthday. Is it ethical?

Arguments for: the restaurant chain really doesn't care when you were actually born; their marketing department bean counters have determined that it's a good idea to offer this benefit for one month of the year, and "your birth month" sounds way cooler than "pick a random month".

Arguments against: it is, after all, not your birthday...

According to the Rogatchover every day/min/sec the world is being recreated, so in essence every second is your birthday..

If you argue with me it means you are implying the Rogatchover is not ethical so be careful! (before you get too worked up about this I am not serious about this last line)
It is all from Hashem and he will continue to give!

Offline jj1000

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Re: Is It Ethical?
« Reply #571 on: January 09, 2013, 12:43:34 PM »
According to the Rogatchover every day/min/sec the world is being recreated, so in essence every second is your birthday..

If you argue with me it means you are implying the Rogatchover is not ethical so be careful! (before you get too worked up about this I am not serious about this last line)
Sorry for the OT but I have to ask. You believe the Rogatchover is the source of that concept? Or just quoting a gadol who holds that?
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Offline elizmm

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Re: Is It Ethical?
« Reply #572 on: January 09, 2013, 12:48:04 PM »
Sorry for the OT but I have to ask. You believe the Rogatchover is the source of that concept? Or just quoting a gadol who holds that?
Looking for the source will post when I find it.


Regardless it also says in Tanya, see here for more on this http://www.chabad.org/library/article_cdo/aid/112685/jewish/G-d-and-Nature.htm

« Last Edit: January 09, 2013, 12:52:10 PM by elizmm »
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Offline Menucha

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Re: Is It Ethical?
« Reply #573 on: January 09, 2013, 12:57:05 PM »
ask the Rogichover and your other Rabbis if the theory works to justify Gezel, sheker etc, and let us know what they say, Beshem Omram.

Offline jj1000

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Re: Is It Ethical?
« Reply #574 on: January 09, 2013, 12:58:03 PM »
ask the Rogichover and your other Rabbis if the theory works to justify Gezel, sheker etc, and let us know what they say, Beshem Omram.
lol
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Offline elizmm

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Re: Is It Ethical?
« Reply #575 on: January 09, 2013, 01:09:19 PM »
ask the Rogichover and your other Rabbis if the theory works to justify Gezel, sheker etc, and let us know what they say, Beshem Omram.
I am not sure how gezel/sheker/misah.. would be able to use this, it only applies to events which are set by a date since that date keeps happening over and over every at each second. gezel et al would keep happening every second too so it doesn't help...

But if you are really desperate and need a heter for gezel/sheker.. PM me with a price and contact info and I will match you up with a local Rabbi in your area, operators are standing by.
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Offline jj1000

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Re: Is It Ethical?
« Reply #576 on: January 09, 2013, 01:14:47 PM »
I am not sure how gezel/sheker/misah.. would be able to use this, it only applies to events which are set by a date since that date keeps happening over and over every at each second. gezel et al would keep happening every second too so it doesn't help...

But if you are really desperate and need a heter for gezel/sheker.. PM me with a price and contact info and I will match you up with a local Rabbi in your area, operators are standing by.
You totally missed the boat. She was saying that if you can justify lying because the world is being created a new every moment so every moment is your birthday, then you can also steal something because it isn't the same object it was a moment before you stole it, hence there is no problem of gezel.
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Offline elizmm

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Re: Is It Ethical?
« Reply #577 on: January 09, 2013, 01:17:37 PM »
You totally missed the boat. She was saying that if you can justify lying because the world is being created a new every moment so every moment is your birthday, then you can also steal something because it isn't the same object it was a moment before you stole it, hence there is no problem of gezel.
Not so because at the same second it is also that persons object and at no time was it legitimately yours, it may have been hefker during the time but I doubt you have enough time to make a kinyan. The only thing that happened was that you stole it every second.

A birthday on the other hand is much different, "today" was and is actually your birthday.

It is all from Hashem and he will continue to give!

Offline jj1000

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Re: Is It Ethical?
« Reply #578 on: January 09, 2013, 01:32:36 PM »
Not so because at the same second it is also that persons object and at no time was it legitimately yours, it may have been hefker during the time but I doubt you have enough time to make a kinyan. The only thing that happened was that you stole it every second.

A birthday on the other hand is much different, "today" was and is actually your birthday.


Really not interested in getting into a philosophical debate on a silly comment by both sides, but your argument about birthdays disregards the idea of continuity in the world. The accepted idea of birth is when you come out of your mothers whom. For your argument to make sense you'd have to assume that this aspect is disregarded because you are a new person every moment hence a new birth, which disregards the fact that if you are the same person who was born say 10 years ago then you only have one time of birth, in essence it seems your argument says you are a completely new person.

Now keeping that argument in mind. Every moment an object is created a new and there is no real way to retain ownership over anything being that you'd have to make an active kinyan every moment for it to be yours, 1. Mitzad you not being the same person and 2. mitzad the object not being the same thing it was when you acquired it.

So for obvious reasons this argument doesn't coincide well with halacha and true everything is being created every moment, yet there is a continuity throughout. Which means you only have one real birthday and if you say otherwise it is a lie, and an object is owned by the same person even if it isn't the same thing as when he acquired it.

(Hope this made some sense, and I'd like to know if this is what Menucha was thinking)
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Offline elizmm

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Re: Is It Ethical?
« Reply #579 on: January 09, 2013, 01:50:57 PM »
Really not interested in getting into a philosophical debate on a silly comment by both sides, but your argument about birthdays disregards the idea of continuity in the world. The accepted idea of birth is when you come out of your mothers whom. For your argument to make sense you'd have to assume that this aspect is disregarded because you are a new person every moment hence a new birth, which disregards the fact that if you are the same person who was born say 10 years ago then you only have one time of birth, in essence it seems your argument says you are a completely new person.

Now keeping that argument in mind. Every moment an object is created a new and there is no real way to retain ownership over anything being that you'd have to make an active kinyan every moment for it to be yours, 1. Mitzad you not being the same person and 2. mitzad the object not being the same thing it was when you acquired it.

So for obvious reasons this argument doesn't coincide well with halacha and true everything is being created every moment, yet there is a continuity throughout. Which means you only have one real birthday and if you say otherwise it is a lie, and an object is owned by the same person even if it isn't the same thing as when he acquired it.

(Hope this made some sense, and I'd like to know if this is what Menucha was thinking)

I really do not want to continue debating this since it is taking away from my Torah learning :).. but one last time:

Object: it is being recreated, rebought, reused, restolen at every momment.

Birthday: you are being reborn and going thru each second of your life at each moment


If JJ goes to a restaurant and say "it is my birthday today", that is true, but it you said today was my "only" birthday then that is a lie.

If JJ goes into an apple store and take an Ipad off the shelf and say it is "mine" that would be a lie because the whole world is being recreated every second - the whole process keeps repeating itself, it is not an alternate world it is the same that has transpired until now it just happens over and over. so it keeps going like this: World created.. torah given.. JJ was just born! Mazal Tov!, bris, school, life.. and then walked into apple store and stole item, this is all happening at the same time at every moment.

The same goes for the object: World created.. torah give.. jj born.. jj stole ipad...

You never had access to this ipad in a state when it was not apple's, it keeps on being created and apple's possession at the same time frame that you stole it, your world and the objects world are the same world that keeps repeating itself. Apple keeps making a kniyan on it every second.

So in summery: Today is your birthday , and if you steal the object you continue to steal it over and over again.

It is all from Hashem and he will continue to give!