Topic Wiki

This thread is to discuss whether people feel that something is unethical, not to find out what the law*/T&C says.

Any Halachic questions should be posted here.

*According to CountValentine this includes religion, but unfortunately for him, the general consensus is that religion will always be entwined in this thread.

*Hint* If you have to ask, It's most likely not ethical.
« Last edited by UKinNYS on April 13, 2021, 11:51:23 AM »

Author Topic: Is It Ethical?  (Read 556450 times)

Offline CountValentine

  • Dansdeals Lifetime 10K Presidential Platinum Elite
  • *******
  • Join Date: Mar 2013
  • Posts: 15788
  • Total likes: 7316
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips -1
  • Gender: Female
    • View Profile
  • Location: Poland - Exiled
  • Programs: DAOTYA, DDF Level 3, 5K Lounge
Re: Is It Ethical?
« Reply #880 on: April 21, 2013, 07:01:50 PM »
Huh?
Please explain how what I said logically leads to your conclusion.
Anyone can have ethics and they can choose to define their ethics using whatever means they wish. My assertion was that for those who define their ethics by their religion, it can be said that for them, "ethics and religion are one and the same".
I strongly disagree, however, with several posters who imply that ethics is something that passively happens to a person based on their upbringing, etc. If it's not a conscious decision to define ethics via some means or another,  then it ain't ethics. It may be good behavior, good habits, etc. that were learned from one's upbringing etc. But it's not ethics unless it's something you decided to stick to because you feel it's right. Ethics are timeless, behaviors are dynamic.
How about this? Ethics and religion being the same is YMMV.
Only on DDF does 24/6 mean 24/5/half/half

Offline george

  • Dansdeals Platinum Elite + Lifetime Silver Elite
  • *****
  • Join Date: Dec 2012
  • Posts: 687
  • Total likes: 7
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 1
    • View Profile
Re: Is It Ethical?
« Reply #881 on: April 21, 2013, 07:43:33 PM »
How about this? Ethics and religion being the same is YMMV.
exactly.

Offline yuneeq

  • Dansdeals Lifetime Presidential Platinum Elite
  • *********
  • Join Date: Jan 2013
  • Posts: 8611
  • Total likes: 3999
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 10
  • Gender: Male
    • View Profile
  • Location: NJ
Re: Is It Ethical?
« Reply #882 on: April 21, 2013, 08:40:32 PM »
As a religious person, I believe it is dumb to think that someone who is not religious doesn't have any ethics. But at the same time I believe it is idiotic for someone who is not religious to have any ethics.
Visibly Jewish

Offline sky121

  • Dansdeals Lifetime 10K Presidential Platinum Elite
  • *******
  • Join Date: May 2011
  • Posts: 11513
  • Total likes: 168
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 12
    • View Profile
Re: Is It Ethical?
« Reply #883 on: April 21, 2013, 08:41:25 PM »
As a religious person, I believe it is dumb to think that someone who is not religious doesn't have any ethics. But at the same time I believe it is idiotic for someone who is not religious to have any ethics.


Why?
"Not all who wander are lost"

Offline bubbles

  • Dansdeals Lifetime Presidential Platinum Elite
  • *********
  • Join Date: Jul 2011
  • Posts: 5060
  • Total likes: 20
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 67
    • View Profile
Re: Is It Ethical?
« Reply #884 on: April 21, 2013, 08:42:51 PM »

Why?

Other than the fact that you need certain laws for society to exist, w/o religion why should anyone do anything other than what is directly best for themselves?

Offline sguitarist18

  • Dansdeals Lifetime Platinum Elite
  • *******
  • Join Date: Jul 2011
  • Posts: 1781
  • Total likes: 884
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 6
    • View Profile
  • Location: NY
Re: Is It Ethical?
« Reply #885 on: April 21, 2013, 08:48:08 PM »
Because they want to do the right thing. Which, it could be argued (which you can agree with or not), offers such a person a benefit as well - feeling like an ethical person.

What I find humorous is when atheists decide that they have the right to decide they've come up with an ethical value system that other people should follow. As if they can decide which objective values are correct.

Online jj1000

  • Administrator
  • Dansdeals Lifetime 10K Presidential Platinum Elite
  • **********
  • Join Date: Jun 2008
  • Posts: 13472
  • Total likes: 6096
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 29367
    • View Profile
  • Location: The value of a forum such as this one is not in that one can post a question and receive an answer, but in that the question has most likely been asked before, and the answer is available to him that will but only use the search function.
  • Programs: 1. Search on google. 2. Search in the right board of DDF with a general word or two. 3. Read the wiki. 4. Read the thread. 5. Ask away.
Re: Is It Ethical?
« Reply #886 on: April 21, 2013, 08:48:21 PM »
Other than the fact that you need certain laws for society to exist, w/o religion why should anyone do anything other than what is directly best for themselves?
many many reasons. There are many very kind and giving atheists in the world.
See my 5 step program to your left <--

(Real signature under my location)

Offline sky121

  • Dansdeals Lifetime 10K Presidential Platinum Elite
  • *******
  • Join Date: May 2011
  • Posts: 11513
  • Total likes: 168
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 12
    • View Profile
Re: Is It Ethical?
« Reply #887 on: April 21, 2013, 08:49:47 PM »
many many reasons. There are many very kind and giving atheists in the world.

+1 you don't have to believe in Gd to believe in and respect  human beings.
"Not all who wander are lost"

Offline sguitarist18

  • Dansdeals Lifetime Platinum Elite
  • *******
  • Join Date: Jul 2011
  • Posts: 1781
  • Total likes: 884
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 6
    • View Profile
  • Location: NY
Re: Is It Ethical?
« Reply #888 on: April 21, 2013, 08:55:54 PM »
+1 you don't have to believe in Gd to believe in and respect  human beings.

True - but without an outsider (be it God or someone else you've accepted as being qualified to decide what your value should be), how one "believes in and respects human beings" will be defined differently, both in how, how much, how far, etc.

Ask 10 people, and if you could get all the details of their ethical beliefs, you'd get 10 different answers. Probably very different answers.

Offline yuneeq

  • Dansdeals Lifetime Presidential Platinum Elite
  • *********
  • Join Date: Jan 2013
  • Posts: 8611
  • Total likes: 3999
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 10
  • Gender: Male
    • View Profile
  • Location: NJ
Re: Is It Ethical?
« Reply #889 on: April 21, 2013, 08:59:20 PM »
+1 you don't have to believe in Gd to believe in and respect  human beings.

And what logical reason do you have for believing in that? If I could get everything I ever wanted without respecting a single person, why wouldn't that be the smartest choice to make? (assuming that I'm atheist)
« Last Edit: April 21, 2013, 09:02:36 PM by yuneeq »
Visibly Jewish

Offline bubbles

  • Dansdeals Lifetime Presidential Platinum Elite
  • *********
  • Join Date: Jul 2011
  • Posts: 5060
  • Total likes: 20
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 67
    • View Profile
Re: Is It Ethical?
« Reply #890 on: April 21, 2013, 09:00:47 PM »
As a religious person, I believe it is dumb to think that someone who is not religious doesn't have any ethics. But at the same time I believe it is idiotic for someone who is not religious to have any ethics.

many many reasons. There are many very kind and giving atheists in the world.

No one is doubting that there are kind atheists. The question was why. Please list one logical reason (other than society would collapse)
« Last Edit: April 21, 2013, 09:07:01 PM by bubbles »

Online jj1000

  • Administrator
  • Dansdeals Lifetime 10K Presidential Platinum Elite
  • **********
  • Join Date: Jun 2008
  • Posts: 13472
  • Total likes: 6096
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 29367
    • View Profile
  • Location: The value of a forum such as this one is not in that one can post a question and receive an answer, but in that the question has most likely been asked before, and the answer is available to him that will but only use the search function.
  • Programs: 1. Search on google. 2. Search in the right board of DDF with a general word or two. 3. Read the wiki. 4. Read the thread. 5. Ask away.
Re: Is It Ethical?
« Reply #891 on: April 21, 2013, 09:13:20 PM »
No one is doubting that there are kind atheists. The question was why. Please list one logical reason (other than society would collapse)
Here is a simple one- One can believe (figure out through basic logic) that you should treat others how you would want to be treated. So if you would be poor you'd want a rich person to give you money, then when you are rich you would give poor people money. Etc.
See my 5 step program to your left <--

(Real signature under my location)

Offline bubbles

  • Dansdeals Lifetime Presidential Platinum Elite
  • *********
  • Join Date: Jul 2011
  • Posts: 5060
  • Total likes: 20
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 67
    • View Profile
Re: Is It Ethical?
« Reply #892 on: April 21, 2013, 09:17:25 PM »
Here is a simple one- One can believe (figure out through basic logic) that you should treat others how you would want to be treated.

Why? That also comes back to the reason that having a functioning society in beneficial for all (which I believe in, but don't believe is the definition of ethics). How about though if one was in a situation where his actions would go unknown, thereby ensuring that no on else will react differently based on his actions. What would be the logic in such a case to do the "admirable" thing?

Offline CountValentine

  • Dansdeals Lifetime 10K Presidential Platinum Elite
  • *******
  • Join Date: Mar 2013
  • Posts: 15788
  • Total likes: 7316
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips -1
  • Gender: Female
    • View Profile
  • Location: Poland - Exiled
  • Programs: DAOTYA, DDF Level 3, 5K Lounge
Re: Is It Ethical?
« Reply #893 on: April 21, 2013, 09:18:57 PM »
And what logical reason do you have for believing in that? If I could get everything I ever wanted without respecting a single person, why wouldn't that be the smartest choice to make? (assuming that I'm atheist)
Do we have any atheist here. Don't worry about speaking up, I got your back.  :)
Only on DDF does 24/6 mean 24/5/half/half

Offline churnbabychurn

  • Dansdeals Lifetime Presidential Platinum Elite
  • *********
  • Join Date: Jul 2012
  • Posts: 7355
  • Total likes: 301
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 0
    • View Profile
  • Location: Lakewood
Re: Is It Ethical?
« Reply #894 on: April 21, 2013, 09:19:00 PM »
200 Y/ago slavery was ethical, 500 y ago torture was etical, 50 Y/A gays were unethical.
Basicaly ethics based on anything but the eternal torah are are flimsy joke, they change with the wind and are not reliable.
G-d taught humanity wrong from right.

Offline CountValentine

  • Dansdeals Lifetime 10K Presidential Platinum Elite
  • *******
  • Join Date: Mar 2013
  • Posts: 15788
  • Total likes: 7316
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips -1
  • Gender: Female
    • View Profile
  • Location: Poland - Exiled
  • Programs: DAOTYA, DDF Level 3, 5K Lounge
Re: Is It Ethical?
« Reply #895 on: April 21, 2013, 09:20:59 PM »
How about though if one was in a situation where his actions would go unknown, thereby ensuring that no on else will react differently based on his actions. What would be the logic in such a case to do the "admirable" thing?
Instinct?
Only on DDF does 24/6 mean 24/5/half/half

Offline bubbles

  • Dansdeals Lifetime Presidential Platinum Elite
  • *********
  • Join Date: Jul 2011
  • Posts: 5060
  • Total likes: 20
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 67
    • View Profile
Re: Is It Ethical?
« Reply #896 on: April 21, 2013, 09:21:46 PM »
Do we have any atheist here. Don't worry about speaking up, I got your back.  :)

You are more than welcome to speak your mind here, but please then respectfully switch your avatar.

Instinct?
correct, though does that mean that you are now redefining what ethics is?. People by now have been hardwired to want to protect society (which is for their own good). Once you think about it though, is there any reason you shouldn't do what's in your own best interest.

Offline CountValentine

  • Dansdeals Lifetime 10K Presidential Platinum Elite
  • *******
  • Join Date: Mar 2013
  • Posts: 15788
  • Total likes: 7316
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips -1
  • Gender: Female
    • View Profile
  • Location: Poland - Exiled
  • Programs: DAOTYA, DDF Level 3, 5K Lounge
Re: Is It Ethical?
« Reply #897 on: April 21, 2013, 09:22:40 PM »
G-d taught humanity wrong from right.
...and who taught the ones that don't believe in G-d?
Only on DDF does 24/6 mean 24/5/half/half

Offline churnbabychurn

  • Dansdeals Lifetime Presidential Platinum Elite
  • *********
  • Join Date: Jul 2012
  • Posts: 7355
  • Total likes: 301
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 0
    • View Profile
  • Location: Lakewood
Re: Is It Ethical?
« Reply #898 on: April 21, 2013, 09:24:49 PM »
...and who taught the ones that don't believe in G-d?
they make it up as they go along. It "Evolves". . .

Offline CountValentine

  • Dansdeals Lifetime 10K Presidential Platinum Elite
  • *******
  • Join Date: Mar 2013
  • Posts: 15788
  • Total likes: 7316
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips -1
  • Gender: Female
    • View Profile
  • Location: Poland - Exiled
  • Programs: DAOTYA, DDF Level 3, 5K Lounge
Re: Is It Ethical?
« Reply #899 on: April 21, 2013, 09:25:05 PM »
You are more than welcome to speak your mind here, but please then respectfully switch your avatar.
I have been speaking my mind. I don't want anyone to be silent because they feel they will be out numbered 1000-1.
Only on DDF does 24/6 mean 24/5/half/half