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This thread is to discuss whether people feel that something is unethical, not to find out what the law*/T&C says.

Any Halachic questions should be posted here.

*According to CountValentine this includes religion, but unfortunately for him, the general consensus is that religion will always be entwined in this thread.

*Hint* If you have to ask, It's most likely not ethical.
« Last edited by UKinNYS on April 13, 2021, 11:51:23 AM »

Author Topic: Is It Ethical?  (Read 556497 times)

Offline jj1000

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Re: Is It Ethical?
« Reply #900 on: April 21, 2013, 09:25:35 PM »
Instinct?
I would call it integrity. But really it is the same rule, if his friend would be in a situation where he could mess said atheist over, the atheist wouldn't want to be messed over, therefore when the atheist is in that situation he will choose not to mess his friend over even though no one will find out.

And this is not what a society needs to function. What does a functioning society need charity for?....

200 Y/ago slavery was ethical, 500 y ago torture was etical, 50 Y/A gays were unethical.
Basicaly ethics based on anything but the eternal torah are are flimsy joke, they change with the wind and are not reliable.
G-d taught humanity wrong from right.
+1

All part of a bigger argument.
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Offline yuneeq

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Re: Is It Ethical?
« Reply #901 on: April 21, 2013, 09:25:57 PM »
Here is a simple one- One can believe (figure out through basic logic) that you should treat others how you would want to be treated.

And why is that logical? Granted, if I know that the other person may find out what my bad acts are, they may act in the same way towards me which would hurt me. But in a case where either no one will ever know who did them wrong or where no one can pay me back for my misdeeds, explain to me why "do unto others" is logical?

ETA: Apparently I missed tons of replies including Bubbles, whom I pretty much said the same exact words as.
« Last Edit: April 21, 2013, 09:29:40 PM by yuneeq »
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Offline bubbles

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Re: Is It Ethical?
« Reply #902 on: April 21, 2013, 09:27:38 PM »
I have been speaking my mind. I don't want anyone to be silent because they feel they will be out numbered 1000-1.

I agree, but not with a holy rabbi sitting on your shoulder

I would call it integrity. But really it is the same rule, if his friend would be in a situation where he could mess said atheist over, the atheist wouldn't want to be messed over, therefore when the atheist is in that situation he will choose not to mess his friend over even though no one will find out.

And this is not what a society needs to function. What does a functioning society need charity for?....


again, why is that logical?

Offline jj1000

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Re: Is It Ethical?
« Reply #903 on: April 21, 2013, 09:30:25 PM »
again, why is that logical?
1. Self-integrity. 2. With enough contemplation it is a conclusion we as humans can come to.

From my understanding before the Torah or even the 7 noahide laws were given Halacha was decided by self contemplation on what people felt was right. And what they learned from the world around them...
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Offline yuneeq

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Re: Is It Ethical?
« Reply #904 on: April 21, 2013, 09:35:22 PM »
From my understanding before the Torah or even the 7 noahide laws were given Halacha was decided by self contemplation on what people felt was right. And what they learned from the world around them...

Which makes a lot of sense to me, given that the world was completely destroyed once and deserved to be destroyed again. All this type of stuff happens in an ethics free world.
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Offline Achas Veachas

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Re: Is It Ethical?
« Reply #905 on: April 21, 2013, 09:36:41 PM »
Instinct?
The way I understand things are as follows: Ethics are inherently subjective, they are what 'feels' right and what 'feels' wrong.

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Re: Is It Ethical?
« Reply #906 on: April 21, 2013, 09:37:52 PM »
1. Self-integrity. 2. With enough contemplation it is a conclusion we as humans can come to.

From my understanding before the Torah or even the 7 noahide laws were given Halacha was decided by self contemplation on what people felt was right. And what they learned from the world around them...
I'm still not hearing anything purely based on logic. How is self-integrity a logical concept? Without religion (and the need for society) why shouldn't we live by the law of survival of the fittest? Why should your needs come before even my slightest desire? Because it will "make me feel good"? What if I think money will make me feel better than helping you out? Anyway (IMO as stated) that feeling is just something that was instilled/evolved in humans in order that we should make sure that there is a set of laws so society can function. Once you realize that, what logic is there to listen to that emotion in a place where it won't affect the underlying goal?

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Re: Is It Ethical?
« Reply #907 on: April 21, 2013, 09:38:33 PM »
Which makes a lot of sense to me, given that the world was completely destroyed once and deserved to be destroyed again. All this type of stuff happens in an ethics free world.
Wow!
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Offline Achas Veachas

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Re: Is It Ethical?
« Reply #908 on: April 21, 2013, 09:42:05 PM »
I'm still not hearing anything purely based on logic. How is self-integrity a logical concept? Without religion (and the need for society) why shouldn't we live by the law of survival of the fittest? Why should your needs come before even my slightest desire? Because it will "make me feel good"? What if I think money will make me feel better than helping you out? Anyway (IMO as stated) that feeling is just something that was instilled/evolved in humans in order that we should make sure that there is a set of laws so society can function. Once you realize that, what logic is there to listen to that emotion in a place where it won't affect the underlying goal?
I don't consider myself "fittest", if I advocate for a world in which those laws apply then I wouldn't survive an instant. OTOH people who do find themselves as fittest (being in positions of power, or because they believe that those in those positions can't get to them) tend to leave morals and ethics out the door.

Offline bubbles

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Re: Is It Ethical?
« Reply #909 on: April 21, 2013, 09:45:14 PM »
I don't consider myself "fittest", if I advocate for a world in which those laws apply then I wouldn't survive an instant. OTOH people who do find themselves as fittest (being in positions of power, or because they believe that those in those positions can't get to them) tend to leave morals and ethics out the door.

This is the concept I have been saying the whole time of societies survival. It is in the best interests of all us weak ones to band together to protect ourselves from the strong. It is why we made up something called "ethics" that we want the strong to keep to.

Offline churnbabychurn

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Re: Is It Ethical?
« Reply #910 on: April 21, 2013, 09:46:45 PM »
the athiest think that they live in a chaotic world zillions of years old and life is a mistake, killing a mistake who is basicaly an ape cant be wrong, can it? And if its wrong, who cares. . .

Offline yuneeq

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Re: Is It Ethical?
« Reply #911 on: April 21, 2013, 09:49:15 PM »
I don't consider myself "fittest", if I advocate for a world in which those laws apply then I wouldn't survive an instant. OTOH people who do find themselves as fittest (being in positions of power, or because they believe that those in those positions can't get to them) tend to leave morals and ethics out the door.

So its basically- don't mess with the guys my size and hope that the bigger guys don't eat me. That is my version of an ethics free world. 
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Offline Achas Veachas

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Re: Is It Ethical?
« Reply #912 on: April 21, 2013, 09:55:08 PM »
So its basically- don't mess with the guys my size and hope that the bigger guys don't eat me. That is my version of an ethics free world. 
or alternatively I can campaign for an ethical world where I promise not to beat up the guys smaller than me, and in return I expect that the big guys won't beat me up...

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Re: Is It Ethical?
« Reply #913 on: April 21, 2013, 09:56:07 PM »
I find it ironic we are discussing ethics when most here could care less if something is ethical or not. Before you jump all over me I mean your decision will be based on your religious beliefs and if that means it is unethical to everyone else, so what.
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Offline yuneeq

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Re: Is It Ethical?
« Reply #914 on: April 21, 2013, 10:01:38 PM »
Actually, while regular ethics are ever-changing personal beliefs that vary from person to person and generation to generation, I think that religious ethics are the most constant and widespread of them all.
« Last Edit: April 21, 2013, 10:24:43 PM by yuneeq »
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Re: Is It Ethical?
« Reply #915 on: April 21, 2013, 10:06:01 PM »
Actually, while regular ethics are ever-changing personal beliefs that vary from person to person and generation to generation, I think that religious ethics are the most constant and widespread of them all.
Neither of them are constant. One just reacts faster than the other.
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Offline yuneeq

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Re: Is It Ethical?
« Reply #916 on: April 21, 2013, 10:22:57 PM »
Neither of them are constant. One just reacts faster than the other.

Quote
the most constant

You just said the same exact thing as me. Nice to see that you agree. :)
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Re: Is It Ethical?
« Reply #917 on: April 21, 2013, 10:28:45 PM »
Nice to see that you agree. :)
I thought you were agreeing with me.  :P
We need to wrap this up. The 10 page limit is almost reached.
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Re: Is It Ethical?
« Reply #918 on: April 21, 2013, 10:29:56 PM »
A good portion of people's ethical  views are based upon religion. This can be seen in people's views on abortion, polygamy, and homosexuality, among other things.
I see that I opened a real can of worms here.
Feelings don't care about your facts

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Re: Is It Ethical?
« Reply #919 on: April 21, 2013, 10:38:44 PM »
I see that I opened a real can of worms here.
It was opened a long time ago. You just kicked it over.  :)
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