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This thread is to discuss whether people feel that something is unethical, not to find out what the law*/T&C says.

Any Halachic questions should be posted here.

*According to CountValentine this includes religion, but unfortunately for him, the general consensus is that religion will always be entwined in this thread.

*Hint* If you have to ask, It's most likely not ethical.
« Last edited by UKinNYS on April 13, 2021, 11:51:23 AM »

Author Topic: Is It Ethical?  (Read 556420 times)

Online CountValentine

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Re: Is It Ethical?
« Reply #940 on: April 23, 2013, 12:19:46 AM »
Would it be ethical to "borrow" points from Amex by paying for something now, and returning it later? You would rack up other purchases to cover the points you got, and this way you would have an advance on the points you would anyways get later. I don't believe in stealing the points as some do by returning on different card, but to me borrowing points would sound ok. And yes, I do know that amex allows the borrowing of up to 15k.
Borrowing the points seems OK but intentionally buying something knowing you are going to return it is not. Your little scheme is going to cost the store money.
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Re: Is It Ethical?
« Reply #941 on: April 23, 2013, 08:28:21 AM »
So I ordered something from a major retailer and in addition to receiving the item that I ordered they also sent me something else valued at roughly $200. I was already charged (correctly) for the one item I ordered. I called them to explain the situation but was put on hold for 15 minutes and lost patience. Do I need to call them back and go through this again? Should I just sell the item on ebay?

Offline Achas Veachas

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Re: Is It Ethical?
« Reply #942 on: April 23, 2013, 08:31:46 AM »
[OT(just for the lolz,) "shoel shelo midaas, gazlan"]
Troll!!!!

Offline yuneeq

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Re: Is It Ethical?
« Reply #943 on: April 23, 2013, 08:54:52 AM »
Borrowing the points seems OK but intentionally buying something knowing you are going to return it is not. Your little scheme is going to cost the store money.

True. That slipped my mind. 
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Re: Is It Ethical?
« Reply #944 on: April 23, 2013, 09:09:17 AM »
intentionally buying something knowing you are going to return it is not. Your little scheme is going to cost the store money.

How do you figure?
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Re: Is It Ethical?
« Reply #945 on: April 23, 2013, 09:34:22 AM »
How do you figure?
Sometimes the item is not put back for sale. Also while you have the item it can't be sold by the store.
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Re: Is It Ethical?
« Reply #946 on: April 23, 2013, 10:23:41 AM »
Sometimes the item is not put back for sale. Also while you have the item it can't be sold by the store.

Assume one returns the item unopened, and it will be put back on the shelf, and further assume the store has a virtually unlimited supply of the item.

Still a problem?
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Re: Is It Ethical?
« Reply #947 on: April 23, 2013, 10:24:50 AM »
Assume one returns the item unopened, and it will be put back on the shelf, and further assume the store has a virtually unlimited supply of the item.

Still a problem?

Well I suppose you could argue that it takes time for the worker to do the return, place the item back on the shelf etc.

Time is money.
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Re: Is It Ethical?
« Reply #948 on: April 23, 2013, 10:49:17 AM »
Assume one returns the item unopened, and it will be put back on the shelf, and further assume the store has a virtually unlimited supply of the item.

Still a problem?
Real life situation but the names have been changed to protect the guilty. HM bought a DSLR camera (4900.00) from XXXX. Returned it unopened sealed in the original packing material. The clerk has to open it up to make sure everything was there. They can’t resell it.
« Last Edit: April 23, 2013, 10:53:51 AM by CountValentine »
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Offline Achas Veachas

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Re: Is It Ethical?
« Reply #949 on: April 23, 2013, 11:00:51 AM »
There is a concept in the Talmud called "Ze Nehena VeZe Lo Chaser" which means that I may get benefit from something belonging to you, as long as I don't cause you any loss (e.g. I'm allowed to walk by your bakery and enjoy the smell of your fresh baked muffins and you can't charge me for it). This concept however doesn't apply to something that is intended to make profit off of (e.g. i can't live in your apartment even if I don't cause any damage, being that you can lease it out and make money).

I believe that buying with the intention of returning falls into the latter.

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Re: Is It Ethical?
« Reply #950 on: April 23, 2013, 11:07:30 AM »
I believe that buying with the intention of returning falls into the latter.
I will just agree so we don't have another 10-20 pages of ethics/religion.  :)
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Re: Is It Ethical?
« Reply #951 on: April 23, 2013, 11:47:41 AM »
I will just agree so we don't have another 10-20 pages of ethics/religion.  :)
Haha! i actually thought long and hard before posting, but I believe it makes sense ethically (whatever that means) not only religiously.

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Re: Is It Ethical?
« Reply #952 on: April 23, 2013, 12:28:57 PM »
Well I suppose you could argue that it takes time for the worker to do the return, place the item back on the shelf etc.

Time is money.

Good point. But if he's being paid on a salary is is not otherwise engaged?

Real life situation but the names have been changed to protect the guilty. HM bought a DSLR camera (4900.00) from XXXX. Returned it unopened sealed in the original packing material. The clerk has to open it up to make sure everything was there. They can’t resell it.

Also a good point. What about if the item doesn't require "packaging" per se? So no need to "open to check."
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Re: Is It Ethical?
« Reply #953 on: April 23, 2013, 01:17:01 PM »
There is a concept in the Talmud called "Ze Nehena VeZe Lo Chaser" which means that I may get benefit from something belonging to you, as long as I don't cause you any loss (e.g. I'm allowed to walk by your bakery and enjoy the smell of your fresh baked muffins and you can't charge me for it). This concept however doesn't apply to something that is intended to make profit off of (e.g. i can't live in your apartment even if I don't cause any damage, being that you can lease it out and make money).

I believe that buying with the intention of returning falls into the latter.
-1, I think you fail to fully understand that din.
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Re: Is It Ethical?
« Reply #954 on: April 23, 2013, 03:04:02 PM »
-1, I think you fail to fully understand that din.
Which part? you don't think this is a case of עשוי להשכיר?

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Re: Is It Ethical?
« Reply #955 on: April 23, 2013, 03:07:56 PM »
as religious jews i'm assuming this question is only for ideological purposes only if it is ethical or not because the halacha is that you are not allowed to return
and just to add my 2 cents (or ba pts) on the previous topic (sorry CV) it says in mishlei that a lazy man should learn from an ant not to be lazy and R' Chaim said that this and all the other good things we learn from creations on this world are only before the torah was given but after the torah was given you have to learn it from the torah. It seems to me from here that there is something called ethics before the torah. It can very possibly be that it is all inc in the torah as well being that the torah is infinite and eternal.
« Last Edit: April 23, 2013, 03:16:51 PM by SamKey »

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Re: Is It Ethical?
« Reply #956 on: April 23, 2013, 03:53:34 PM »
as religious jews i'm assuming this question is only for ideological purposes only if it is ethical or not because the halacha is that you are not allowed to return
and just to add my 2 cents (or ba pts) on the previous topic (sorry CV) it says in mishlei that a lazy man should learn from an ant not to be lazy and R' Chaim said that this and all the other good things we learn from creations on this world are only before the torah was given but after the torah was given you have to learn it from the torah. It seems to me from here that there is something called ethics before the torah. It can very possibly be that it is all inc in the torah as well being that the torah is infinite and eternal.
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Re: Is It Ethical?
« Reply #957 on: April 23, 2013, 03:56:18 PM »
Not trying to be funny but they really should change the name of this thread.
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Re: Is It Ethical?
« Reply #958 on: April 23, 2013, 04:00:08 PM »
Not trying to be funny but they really should change the name of this thread.
And move it to JS. It has gotten rather annoying IMHO.
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Re: Is It Ethical?
« Reply #959 on: April 23, 2013, 04:06:55 PM »
And move it to JS. It has gotten rather annoying IMHO.
One out of two.  >:(
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