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This thread is to discuss whether people feel that something is unethical, not to find out what the law*/T&C says.

Any Halachic questions should be posted here.

*According to CountValentine this includes religion, but unfortunately for him, the general consensus is that religion will always be entwined in this thread.

*Hint* It's most likely not ethical.

Author Topic: Is It Ethical?  (Read 264548 times)

Online skyguy918

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Re: Is It Ethical?
« Reply #1275 on: March 25, 2014, 05:37:42 PM »
- 1. please dont make incorrect  halacha statments as a fact. ethics may be a opinion , halacha is not
Care to elaborate on why it's halachically not taus akum?

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Re: Is It Ethical?
« Reply #1276 on: March 25, 2014, 05:46:23 PM »
- 1. please dont make incorrect  halacha statments as a fact. ethics may be a opinion , halacha is not

Please have your LOR speak to mine. K, thanks.

Or feel free to cite to your source as to why this is NOT taus akum, and I'd be happy to bring it to his attention.
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Offline dans fan

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Re: Is It Ethical?
« Reply #1277 on: March 25, 2014, 06:38:35 PM »
Care to elaborate on why it's halachically not taus akum?
hate typing and have a hard time expressing myself when i type but i will try.
there are a couple of different points to address.
a)first of all t.a can only be applied to the owner of a item the cashier is not a bailim to make a toas , the only way he can do that is if they are given the rights by the owner to make mistakes there is no reason to believe that is the case (this has nothing to do with the fact that a manager is given leeway to decide evan though he is not the owner) if you think that they are given permission to make a mistake then on your way out of the store show the manager he will definitly not let you keep it, evan if once you left the store you would call and ask they often say next time you come bring it back and if they say you can keep it, its a cs tactic not because the cashier was given the bailus to make a mistake therefore its not t.a. (if they say you can keep it then your ok without t.a.
before we contin lets clear up a common mistake just to be clear t.a. does not mean a mistake was made it does not include all mistakes it means if he did a mechira (limited to the item, payment, and change which is part of payment) based on a assumption which was incorrect the michira is still chal. it does not include a mistake made outside of the challos mechira
b)when there is a itemized receipt it clearly states what you payed for anything not on there doesnt belong to you. if they wouldnt use cash register and the cashier would collect all your items and say "its a total of $xx" then it may be t.a. but a itemized reciept/bill its in other words saying this is what you are paying for any additional items you did not pay for and are not part of the mechira it makes no difference if they handed it to you or you take it off a shelf an put it in your bag it wasnt part of the mechira. similar to if the cashier puts all you items into a bag and the bag had somthing in it, it wouldn't belong to you
c)being that i am not sure exactly sure what happened at the register, lets start with scenario 1. if you are buying a couple of items and the cashier thinks you bought 5 soda and you really have six, you were given a price for six only because they thought you had five, that would be t.a but if you did have 5 soda and you olso had a chips that he didnt notice there is no mistake in the mechira he simply never sold you the chips. so if the cashier miscounted then it would be t.a. but if it was stuck or attached or hidden under a different item and therefore didnt get scanned it may not be t.a.
Please have your LOR speak to mine. K, thanks.
did you actually ask him about this case or about something else and you decided its similar
Or feel free to cite to your source as to why this is NOT taus akum, and I'd be happy to bring it to his attention.
you can explain him the above. if he dismisses it ask him for a source
its possible that you will find ppl that will disagree on part of the above but to make a statment "def taos akum" is def not true
« Last Edit: March 25, 2014, 06:41:50 PM by dans fan »

Online CountValentine

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Re: Is It Ethical?
« Reply #1278 on: March 26, 2014, 02:30:52 AM »
Please change the name of this thread to “How intelligent people can really sound stupid”.
You're so far up Trump's a** you can see Giuliani's feet.  HT Baruch

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Re: Is It Ethical?
« Reply #1279 on: March 26, 2014, 05:17:26 PM »
Please change the name of this thread to “How intelligent people can really sound stupid”.
?

Offline good sam

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Re: Is It Ethical?
« Reply #1280 on: March 26, 2014, 05:26:48 PM »
Please change the name of this thread to “How intelligent people can really sound stupid”.
-1 Thought he sounded intelligent.

Here's the scenario: he scans everything, I didn't notice him scanning the big item in my cart, so I say "did you get this also?" he says, "yup, you're all set."  On my way out, to make sure, I check the receipt, and find that he didn't scan it. 

This wouldn't take care of your first issue of him not being the owner, but I'd think it would fall within the definition of "taos."
If you don't care why would you comment?
HT: DMYD

Offline @Yehuda

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Re: Is It Ethical?
« Reply #1281 on: March 26, 2014, 05:30:29 PM »
Find it interesting this hasn't been discussed in the thread yet... Churning. Do you think it's ethical?
(Leaving out AMEX who at least until recently has knowingly allowed churning after 12 months).

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Re: Is It Ethical?
« Reply #1282 on: March 26, 2014, 05:37:50 PM »
How is it unethical if you follow the terms and conditions?
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Offline good sam

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Re: Is It Ethical?
« Reply #1283 on: March 26, 2014, 05:40:02 PM »
How is it unethical if you follow the terms and conditions?
Good for you. But there is halachathe T&Cs, and there is doing the "right" thing. Not always do they go hand in hand.
If you don't care why would you comment?
HT: DMYD

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Re: Is It Ethical?
« Reply #1284 on: March 26, 2014, 05:45:19 PM »
Disagree those are the same.
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Offline dans fan

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Re: Is It Ethical?
« Reply #1285 on: March 26, 2014, 06:47:03 PM »
Here's the scenario: he scans everything, I didn't notice him scanning the big item in my cart, so I say "did you get this also?" he says, "yup, you're all set."  On my way out, to make sure, I check the receipt, and find that he didn't scan it. 

This wouldn't take care of your first issue of him not being the owner, but I'd think it would fall within the definition of "taos."
thats true in your case since he thought he charged you for it, it would be a toas , but point number two is olso a issue being that there is a itemized bill, its as if the bill says you are paying x amount of money for item xyz. anything not on there is not part of the mechira and is not taos akum. its true he made a mistake but a mistake doesnt make it toas akum. it can be compared to taking a item skipping the  cash regester and heading towards the door, you show your reciept from another purchase to the security at the door , he makes a mistake thinks you paid for it and lets you go,true there is a mistake but its not toas akum. taos akum is a type of a transaction, not a mistake

Offline @Yehuda

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Re: Is It Ethical?
« Reply #1286 on: March 26, 2014, 06:56:05 PM »
How is it unethical if you follow the terms and conditions?
Was that in response to me? If it was, aren't the T&C clear that enrollment bonuses can only be earned for first time cardholders?
I'm betting you weren't talking to me so I'm just gonna go ahead and #awkward it.

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Re: Is It Ethical?
« Reply #1287 on: March 26, 2014, 07:14:25 PM »
Was that in response to me? If it was, aren't the T&C clear that enrollment bonuses can only be earned for first time cardholders?
I'm betting you weren't talking to me so I'm just gonna go ahead and #awkward it.

No, I was.

But AFAIK, most T&Cs mention nothing of first timers, CMIIW.
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Offline @Yehuda

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Re: Is It Ethical?
« Reply #1288 on: March 26, 2014, 07:27:47 PM »
No, I was.

But AFAIK, most T&Cs mention nothing of first timers, CMIIW.

Oh, hehe. Well, yeah pretty sure most of them do mention it. Just pulled up UMPE for example:

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Re: Is It Ethical?
« Reply #1289 on: March 26, 2014, 07:35:03 PM »
Seems you're right... let the debate begin!
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