Author Topic: Writing one's own נוסח המצבה (tombstone)  (Read 3907 times)

Offline ah giten

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Re: Writing one's own נוסח המצבה (tombstone)
« Reply #20 on: February 03, 2022, 12:44:44 PM »
The Ropshitzer Rav wrote his own.
יחיד בדורו בחכמת א-לקים

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Re: Writing one's own נוסח המצבה (tombstone)
« Reply #21 on: February 03, 2022, 02:02:16 PM »
@ExGingi I think there's also a consideration of not being different than the 'neighborhood', even in oversimplifying

(I'm no sure who greenlighted pinto's)

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Re: Writing one's own נוסח המצבה (tombstone)
« Reply #22 on: February 03, 2022, 02:16:54 PM »
@ExGingi I think there's also a consideration of not being different than the 'neighborhood', even in oversimplifying

(I'm no sure who greenlighted pinto's)

Absolutely, regarding style. I am not sure if anyone can complain about a מצבה that says less rather than more.

I don't see any issue with Pinto's מצבה. On the contrary.
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Offline koplonko

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Re: Writing one's own נוסח המצבה (tombstone)
« Reply #23 on: February 03, 2022, 03:56:32 PM »
@ExGingi I think there's also a consideration of not being different than the 'neighborhood', even in oversimplifying

(I'm no sure who greenlighted pinto's)
Also an instruction from the Rebbe (iinm in the same letter as instruction to mention the Rebbe)

Offline dovy2

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Re: Writing one's own נוסח המצבה (tombstone)
« Reply #24 on: February 03, 2022, 06:02:47 PM »
מ'וועט נישט שמייסן זושא פארוואס ער איז נישט געווען מיילעך; מ'וועט שמייסן זושא פארוואס ער איז נישט געווען זושא, האט דער ר"ר זושא גיזאגט

So if anything that is added written on the matzeiva can create an extra טענה.
Hmmm.. wonder if there was pun intended with the specific story you picked 🤔

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Re: Writing one's own נוסח המצבה (tombstone)
« Reply #25 on: February 03, 2022, 06:36:01 PM »
Hmmm.. wonder if there was pun intended with the specific story you picked 🤔

No pun intended, though I can see why you might have suspected that.

It's just a very famous story.
I've been waiting over 5 years with bated breath for someone to say that!
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Online Yehuda57

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Re: Writing one's own נוסח המצבה (tombstone)
« Reply #26 on: February 04, 2022, 11:43:18 AM »
Looking at my grandfather’s matzeiva, (today is his Yahrtzeit) I have no doubt he'd have cut most of the text out if he had written it himself. Otoh, his kids would have been quite upset leaving that out. I'm genuinely curious what a rov would have told them had there been a written instruction as to what to write. Everything there is true.

Offline Spoon

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Re: Writing one's own נוסח המצבה (tombstone)
« Reply #27 on: February 04, 2022, 01:48:42 PM »
I believe the Maharshdam wrote his own.

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Re: Writing one's own נוסח המצבה (tombstone)
« Reply #28 on: February 04, 2022, 01:56:40 PM »
I have no doubt he'd have cut most of the text out if he had written it himself. Otoh, his kids would have been quite upset leaving that out.

Why does this sound reminiscent of people insisting on davening with a minyan at the height of COVID-19 when Rabbonim were saying not to do so?
I've been waiting over 5 years with bated breath for someone to say that!
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Offline AsherO

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Re: Writing one's own נוסח המצבה (tombstone)
« Reply #29 on: February 04, 2022, 01:59:25 PM »
Why does this sound reminiscent of people insisting on davening with a minyan at the height of COVID-19 when Rabbonim were saying not to do so?

Doesn’t sound the same to me at all. The former is about loved ones wanting to properly memorialize a loved one (beyond that person’s humble self-perception), the latter is common-sense Halacha and people being more pious than G-d.

To say it differently, in the case of a headstone the facts are objectively true, and the opinions about whether they should be on the headstone are subjective. When it comes to the halachic guidance at the height of a pandemic plague, there is only objective Halacha, and the subjective piety should objectively be irrelevant.
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Re: Writing one's own נוסח המצבה (tombstone)
« Reply #30 on: February 04, 2022, 02:09:20 PM »
Doesn’t sound the same to me at all. The former is about loved ones wanting to properly memorialize a loved one (beyond that person’s humble self-perception), the latter is common-sense Halacha and people being more pious than G-d.

To say it differently, in the case of a headstone the facts are objectively true, and the opinions about whether they should be on the headstone are subjective. When it comes to the halachic guidance at the height of a pandemic plague, there is only objective Halacha, and the subjective piety should objectively be irrelevant.

What about the true רצון of בעל הרצון?
I've been waiting over 5 years with bated breath for someone to say that!
-- Dan

Offline Yonah

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Re: Writing one's own נוסח המצבה (tombstone)
« Reply #31 on: February 04, 2022, 02:10:49 PM »
Wow - the topic hit me like a ton of bricks. I helped my father write the nusach for my mother's matzeiva. He wanted it to be in an acrostic style. He wrote the initial text, and I helped edit it. When he was niftar I remembered the love and care he put into getting it right for my mother, and wrote an acrostic for him (with the help of his siblings and other relatives).... and I also was asked to help with my great-uncle's matzeiva by his children (they are not at all frum, and their father was more traditional).

Of course, after writing those, I thought about my own ultimate return to Olam Ha'emes (which I"H will not be for many more years!) and short of leaving instructions to minimize the language - i.e. name, abbreviations, and not much else - I think it's a bit arrogant.

For example, I had a relative who said no hespedim at his leviah. Which was honored by his family. I think that's okay - but very different than writing your own hesped and asking it to be read at the funeral.


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Re: Writing one's own נוסח המצבה (tombstone)
« Reply #32 on: February 04, 2022, 02:13:36 PM »
Of course, after writing those, I thought about my own ultimate return to Olam Ha'emes (which I"H will not be for many more years!) and short of leaving instructions to minimize the language - i.e. name, abbreviations, and not much else - I think it's a bit arrogant.

For example, I had a relative who said no hespedim at his leviah. Which was honored by his family. I think that's okay - but very different than writing your own hesped and asking it to be read at the funeral.

I can see why you would consider it arrogant if one were to write approbations or titles, but if one were to want certain facts about their life or a possuk (as mentioned above), what's wrong with that? (you wouldn't know him, but while I'm sure Pinto wouldn't have asked for the inscription written on his מצבה, he would be OK with it, @gozalim don't you think so).

Even thinking of someone who many would consider arrogant, do you see something wrong here (other than considerations about not writing in English, etc.):
« Last Edit: February 04, 2022, 02:24:16 PM by ExGingi »
I've been waiting over 5 years with bated breath for someone to say that!
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Re: Writing one's own נוסח המצבה (tombstone)
« Reply #33 on: February 04, 2022, 02:15:53 PM »
Why does this sound reminiscent of people insisting on davening with a minyan at the height of COVID-19 when Rabbonim were saying not to do so?

I don't know. It's certainly not the same. My post was a hypothetical. You know many of the people involved, there is no way they would have gone against a written or verbal instruction from my grandfather.

My curiosity is in the hypothetical scenario of a written instruction being given, would children's desire take presedence *if they asked*, and if what they were writing was true and according to the communal minhag.

Offline AsherO

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Re: Writing one's own נוסח המצבה (tombstone)
« Reply #34 on: February 04, 2022, 02:17:23 PM »
What about the true רצון of בעל הרצון?

There’s an aspect of the memorial that’s about the departed, but there’s also an aspect about the surviving relatives/descendants.

There are probably Halachos about these things…
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Re: Writing one's own נוסח המצבה (tombstone)
« Reply #35 on: February 04, 2022, 02:20:13 PM »
There’s an aspect of the memorial that’s about the departed, but there’s also an aspect about the surviving relatives/descendants.

There are probably Halachos about these things…

TBH, when a discussion came up recently about language such as דור ישרים מבורך I raised the question whether the purpose of the מצבה is to write about the deceased or to praise his issue. (This is all in the context of acknowledging the desire to minimize what is written. If the attitude is to write as much praise as possible, then bring it all on).
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Offline AsherO

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Re: Writing one's own נוסח המצבה (tombstone)
« Reply #36 on: February 04, 2022, 02:23:54 PM »
TBH, when a discussion came up recently about language such as דור ישרים מבורך I raised the question whether the purpose of the מצבה is to write about the deceased or to praise his issue. (This is all in the context of acknowledging the desire to minimize what is written. If the attitude is to write as much praise as possible, then bring it all on).

Praise his issue?
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Re: Writing one's own נוסח המצבה (tombstone)
« Reply #37 on: February 04, 2022, 02:24:51 PM »
I've been waiting over 5 years with bated breath for someone to say that!
-- Dan

Offline AsherO

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Re: Writing one's own נוסח המצבה (tombstone)
« Reply #38 on: February 04, 2022, 02:26:41 PM »
Issue = צאצאים

I don’t think anyone suggests העמיד דור ישרים מבורך is about praising descendants, it’s considered an accomplishment (or impact left on the world) of the deceased.
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