What we learned from the Russian military operation

[yesitsme]

There's nothing more dangerous in life than surrounding yourself with yes-men.

https://twitter.com/ianbremmer/status/1519461283208212485

[AsherO]

Starlink is invaluable

[WAM]

Some obvious ones:
- Don’t underestimate your adversary
- Plan 10 moves ahead, and know how you’re going to save face

I learned this for Putin:
• Plan 10 moves ahead.
• Whatever you planned, don't do.

Ukraine:

• Used to be its own country, but then was taken over and controlled by another country (USSR).
• When the country in charge fell, Ukraine declared independence
• Putin says Ukraine is really not its own country, tries to "take it back"
• Russia commits war crimes and kills hundreds of innocent Ukrainians in the name of war
• Ukraine defends itself despite being attacked from the north, east and South
• The US media looks up to Ukraine and its leader who is now known as a brave warrior and tactician
• The world boycotts Russia
• The world does support Ukraine and its right to independence

Here's an exercise: try to apply the above list with Israel.

• Used to be its own country, but then was taken over and controlled by another country.
• When the country in charge fell gave Israel its own country back, Ukraine Israel declared independence
• Putin other countries say Ukraine Israel is really not its own country, tries to "take it back"
• Russia other countries commit war crimes and kills hundreds of innocent Ukrainians Israelis in the name of war
• Ukraine Israel defends itself despite being attacked from the north, east and South
• The US media looks up down to Ukraine Israel and its leader who is now known as a brave warrior and tactician
• The world boycotts Russia Israel
• The world does not support Ukraine Israel and its right to independence

[zh cohen]

Ukraine:

• Used to be its own country, but then was taken over and controlled by another country (USSR).

Historically inaccurate. Ukraine was not an independent country until after the fall of the Soviet Union. It went from Polish rule to Russian rule in the time of Chlemnitzky

[aygart]

Historically inaccurate. Ukraine was not an independent country until after the fall of the Soviet Union. It went from Polish rule to Russian rule in the time of Chlemnitzky

And Israel/Palestine etc. had not been an independent state for well over 1000 years.

[zh cohen]

And Israel/Palestine etc. had not been an independent state for well over 1000 years.

But before that it was.  I'm saying that Ukraine never was independent. Saying that it was can be better compared to claiming that Donetsk is an independent country.

[aygart]

But before that it was.  I'm saying that Ukraine never was independent. Saying that it was can be better compared to claiming that Donetsk is an independent country.

-1
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ukraine#Golden_Age_of_Kyiv

[skyguy918]

But before that it was.  I'm saying that Ukraine never was independent. Saying that it was can be better compared to claiming that Donetsk is an independent country.

-1
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ukraine#Golden_Age_of_Kyiv

Exactly. It was called Kievan Rus because Kiev was the capital - well before the establishment of anything historians connect with modern day Russia.

Reposting this excellent video that was posted in one of the other Ukraine related threads:

[zh cohen]

-1
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ukraine#Golden_Age_of_Kyiv

The claim that Ukraine is the (exclusive) successor of Kievan Rus is something of a stretch. There is a reason that Chlemnitzky, not the leaders of Rus, is the Ukrainian nationalist hero and is considered the founding father of Ukraine

[aygart]

The claim that Ukraine is the (exclusive) successor of Kievan Rus is something of a stretch. There is a reason that Chlemnitzky is the Ukrainian nationalist hero, not  the leaders of Rus.

Much less of a stretch than the Palestinians being the successors of the Chashmonaim

The nationalist icon comes from his having fought against the foriegn powers

[skyguy918]

The claim that Ukraine is the (exclusive) successor of Kievan Rus is something of a stretch. There is a reason that Chlemnitzky, not the leaders of Rus, is the Ukrainian nationalist hero and is considered the founding father of Ukraine

This is a quote from the video, from Henry Abramson, who has a PhD in Ukrainian Studies: "...it would be more appropriate to say that Russia belongs to Ukraine than to say that Ukraine belongs to Russia."

Khmelnytsky is definitely a nationalist hero, but that doesn't make him a 'founder'. You yourself pointed out that under Khmelnytsky they just went from being under the Polish to the Russians. That doesn't preclude someone saying they had a prior history. Your point about Khmelnytsky proves absolutely nothing. That's like saying that because Ben Gurion is considered a founding father of the modern state of Israel, therefore there was never an independent Israel in the past.

[gozalim]

because Ben Gurion is considered a founding father of the modern state of Israel, therefore there was never an independent Israel in the past.

zionist philosophy for decades 🙈

[skyguy918]

zionist philosophy for decades 🙈

Zionist philosophy is (or was ever) that there was never an independent Israel in the past? Maybe you mean that secular zionists didn't care whether they ended up in Israel, or that they didn't want their modern state to have anything to do with the religion, but I'm not sure what that has to do with the analogy I made.

[gozalim]

Zionist philosophy is (or was ever) that there was never an independent Israel in the past? Maybe you mean that secular zionists didn't care whether they ended up in Israel, or that they didn't want their modern state to have anything to do with the religion, but I'm not sure what that has to do with the analogy I made.

there was major hesitation (in some corners) about basing our claim to it on biblical history.

[skyguy918]

there was major hesitation (in some corners) about basing our claim to it on biblical history.

He basically said Ukraine was never independent prior to the 20th century and the proof is that Khmelnytsky is considered the founding father and the Rurik's of Kievan Rus are not. [As an aside, that's not really true either, as Vladimir the Great has that sort of cultural status for Ukraine as well.] So I said that's like saying Israel was never independent prior to the 20th century and the proof is that Ben Gurion is considered the founding father over historical leaders of Israel. Even if the latter statement is true in each case, it doesn't prove the former statement in each case. Any hesitation within zionism of making use of our biblical claims is not the same as denying the truth/accuracy of those claims.

[zh cohen]

Much less of a stretch than the Palestinians being the successors of the Chashmonaim

I don't believe that the Palestinians are successors of the Chashmona'im. Is there someone who claims that they are?

[yelped]

I don't believe that the Palestinians are successors of the Chashmona'im. Is there someone who claims that they are?

Everytime you ask them, they will say something else.

[aygart]

I don't believe that the Palestinians are successors of the Chashmona'im. Is there someone who claims that they are?

But before that it was.  I'm saying that Ukraine never was independent. Saying that it was can be better compared to claiming that Donetsk is an independent country.

[yesitsme]

https://afresearchlab.com/news/afrl-technology-makes-new-weapon-for-sinking-ships-a-reality/

[WAM]

And Israel/Palestine etc. had not been an independent state for well over 1000 years.

What difference does it make if was was 100 years or 1000 years?