Author Topic: Is democracy the right form of government everywhere?  (Read 3226 times)

Offline ExGingi

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Is democracy the right form of government everywhere?
« on: April 01, 2022, 04:24:29 PM »
I have contended for a long time that I don't think democracy is necessarily right for everyone.

Came across the following opinion piece today:

https://www.bloomberg.com/opinion/articles/2022-04-01/russia-ukraine-war-to-save-global-democracy-sign-up-a-few-good-dictators
I've been waiting over 5 years with bated breath for someone to say that!
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Offline Moshe Green

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Re: Is democracy the right form of government everywhere?
« Reply #1 on: April 02, 2022, 05:42:30 PM »
I have contended for a long time that I don't think democracy is necessarily right for everyone.

Came across the following opinion piece today:

https://www.bloomberg.com/opinion/articles/2022-04-01/russia-ukraine-war-to-save-global-democracy-sign-up-a-few-good-dictators

100% correct. Besides for knowing that Mashiach will be a king not an elected by the people, lots of nations can't handle democracy because they are either too illiterate, too proud, too set in their ways, or a host of other reasons. Look at Africa for example. They are murdering each other in their "democracy" as we type.

Offline ExGingi

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Re: Is democracy the right form of government everywhere?
« Reply #2 on: April 02, 2022, 09:27:51 PM »
100% correct. Besides for knowing that Mashiach will be a king not an elected by the people, lots of nations can't handle democracy because they are either too illiterate, too proud, too set in their ways, or a host of other reasons. Look at Africa for example. They are murdering each other in their "democracy" as we type.

While there is some truth to what you say, it comes across as extremely condescending (implying that other forms of government are inferior, or that only inferior people should have those forms of government).

Take the UAE as an example, it's a monarchy (or principality) yet I don't think any of the items with the negative connotation that you mention can be said about them.

In regards to what you write about Moshiach, that falls into a totally different stratosphere.

In general a מלך מבית דוד had a different potential (though no guarantee) to be different.
I've been waiting over 5 years with bated breath for someone to say that!
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Re: Is democracy the right form of government everywhere?
« Reply #3 on: April 02, 2022, 09:49:41 PM »
While there is some truth to what you say, it comes across as extremely condescending (implying that other forms of government are inferior, or that only inferior people should have those forms of government).

Take the UAE as an example, it's a monarchy (or principality) yet I don't think any of the items with the negative connotation that you mention can be said about them.

In regards to what you write about Moshiach, that falls into a totally different stratosphere.

In general a מלך מבית דוד had a different potential (though no guarantee) to be different.
אין מעמידים מלך בן מלך
Is considered a shortcoming
Feelings don't care about your facts

Offline Moshe Green

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Re: Is democracy the right form of government everywhere?
« Reply #4 on: April 03, 2022, 01:52:08 AM »
While there is some truth to what you say, it comes across as extremely condescending (implying that other forms of government are inferior, or that only inferior people should have those forms of government).

Take the UAE as an example, it's a monarchy (or principality) yet I don't think any of the items with the negative connotation that you mention can be said about them.

In regards to what you write about Moshiach, that falls into a totally different stratosphere.

In general a מלך מבית דוד had a different potential (though no guarantee) to be different.

i don't really understand what you are saying. If a nation is not literate, then democracy is terrible because democracy can only work when the ones voting understand whats going on. its not condescending, its thte reality of the ones that came up with democracy. as for the uae (and most arab countries), their tribal ways also make it impossible to have a democracy as well.

Offline ExGingi

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Re: Is democracy the right form of government everywhere?
« Reply #5 on: April 03, 2022, 02:30:58 PM »
https://twitter.com/nntaleb/status/1510680191001145347

I used google translate (lens) to get the translation of what the joke was, but I believe the sarcasm in the meaning behind the names used is definitely lost in translation. (I am not that fluent in Arabic, but I think I get the gist, which could be seen as an insult to the rulers).

« Last Edit: April 03, 2022, 02:48:50 PM by ExGingi »
I've been waiting over 5 years with bated breath for someone to say that!
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Re: Is democracy the right form of government everywhere?
« Reply #6 on: April 04, 2022, 03:57:25 PM »
Part of the issue is when "democracy" is distorted to mean whatever values the speaker has. A prime example - https://twitter.com/anders_aslund/status/1510730232273195009

"Votes overwhelmingly against democracy"

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Re: Is democracy the right form of government everywhere?
« Reply #7 on: April 04, 2022, 04:15:15 PM »
i don't really understand what you are saying. If a nation is not literate, then democracy is terrible because democracy can only work when the ones voting understand whats going on. its not condescending, its thte reality of the ones that came up with democracy. as for the uae (and most arab countries), their tribal ways also make it impossible to have a democracy as well.

Do you need to be merely literate or do you need to be somewhat more educated and not completely ignorant for democracy to work? If you're, say, a North American speaking about the entire African continent as if it's a monolithic country, are you too ignorant for democracy to work?

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Re: Is democracy the right form of government everywhere?
« Reply #8 on: April 04, 2022, 04:36:09 PM »
The chiddush of DDF is the way Dan Deals with all us crazies 🤪

Offline ExGingi

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Re: Is democracy the right form of government everywhere?
« Reply #9 on: April 04, 2022, 04:48:32 PM »
Do you need to be merely literate or do you need to be somewhat more educated and not completely ignorant for democracy to work? If you're, say, a North American speaking about the entire African continent as if it's a monolithic country, are you too ignorant for democracy to work?

I can hear your African blood boiling.
I've been waiting over 5 years with bated breath for someone to say that!
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Re: Is democracy the right form of government everywhere?
« Reply #10 on: April 05, 2022, 12:35:54 AM »
I can hear your African blood boiling.

More bemused than anything

Offline Moshe Green

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Re: Is democracy the right form of government everywhere?
« Reply #11 on: April 05, 2022, 11:56:32 AM »
Do you need to be merely literate or do you need to be somewhat more educated and not completely ignorant for democracy to work? lets start with literacy and then we'll work on education. but without literacy, democracy is hopeless.If you're, say, a North American speaking about the entire African continent as if it's a monolithic country, are you too ignorant for democracy to work?not necessarily. ignorance in one part of knowledge has nothing to do with other parts. most of us might not know so much about economics, crime, war, inflation, politics, racism, or any other part of government that is effected when we vote, but we can still choose a candidate who most suits our worldview and will give us what is most important to us.

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Re: Is democracy the right form of government everywhere?
« Reply #12 on: April 05, 2022, 01:05:35 PM »
ignorance in one part of knowledge has nothing to do with other parts. most of us might not know so much about economics, crime, war, inflation, politics, racism, or any other part of government that is effected when we vote, but we can still choose a candidate who most suits our worldview and will give us what is most important to us.

But random African can't figure that out? Sheesh, at least be embarrassed enough about your racism not to post it publicly.

Offline Moshe Green

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Re: Is democracy the right form of government everywhere?
« Reply #13 on: April 06, 2022, 11:07:28 AM »
But random African can't figure that out? Sheesh, at least be embarrassed enough about your racism not to post it publicly.

??? nothing to do with race. a buncha white caucasians who dont know about basic stuff shouldnt have democracy. on an aside, democracy was made by the greeks who only allowed landowners to vote. there was a good reason for that...

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Re: Is democracy the right form of government everywhere?
« Reply #14 on: April 06, 2022, 11:20:57 AM »


??? nothing to do with race. a buncha white caucasians who dont know about basic stuff shouldnt have democracy. on an aside, democracy was made by the greeks who only allowed landowners to vote. there was a good reason for that...

I know I shouldn't, but...

Nothing to do with race, but your criteria about who is sufficiently literate to handle democracy despite being uneducated in basically every area is basically "everyone besides the Africans and Arabs".

I know you don't think you're being racist, you're just being "real" or whatever. But if you want to base democracy on literacy or education, please explain why and how the Americans who don't know "basic stuff" in your previous post are still able to innately know "what's best for them" while Africans and Arabs who don't know "basic stuff" are not able to figure out what's best for them? 

Intresting that in your OP you point to civil wars to make your point when countries who have democracies don't have civil wars and countries that do have wars have dictators who either don't have or circumvent the democratic process.

As an aside, I wonder if the "good reason" the Greeks did that is similar to how the founders of the USA's democracy deemed black people as sub human and didn't allow women to vote, etc.

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Re: Is democracy the right form of government everywhere?
« Reply #15 on: April 06, 2022, 11:32:54 AM »
Part of the issue is when "democracy" is distorted to mean whatever values the speaker has. A prime example - https://twitter.com/anders_aslund/status/1510730232273195009

"Votes overwhelmingly against democracy"
If there is a referendum on switching to monarchy, is that a vote against democracy?

״וזה כלל גדול: שישנא אדם כל דבר שקר. וכל מה שיוסיף שנאה לדרכי השקר – יוסיף אהבה לתורה.״ - אורחות צדיקים

Offline Moshe Green

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Re: Is democracy the right form of government everywhere?
« Reply #16 on: April 06, 2022, 03:39:02 PM »

I know I shouldn't, but...

Nothing to do with race, but your criteria about who is sufficiently literate to handle democracy despite being uneducated in basically every area is basically "everyone besides the Africans and Arabs".

I know you don't think you're being racist, you're just being "real" or whatever. But if you want to base democracy on literacy or education, please explain why and how the Americans who don't know "basic stuff" in your previous post are still able to innately know "what's best for them" while Africans and Arabs who don't know "basic stuff" are not able to figure out what's best for them? 

Intresting that in your OP you point to civil wars to make your point when countries who have democracies don't have civil wars and countries that do have wars have dictators who either don't have or circumvent the democratic process.

As an aside, I wonder if the "good reason" the Greeks did that is similar to how the founders of the USA's democracy deemed black people as sub human and didn't allow women to vote, etc.

i apologize for offending anyone but perhaps because i've lived in Israel for so long that i haven't realized that american society has decided to demonize common sense. i believe you are reading into my comments with liberal and lefty coated glasses, but perhaps that is the norm now.

do you deny that despite many of the african nations calling themselves democratic that they are anything but? can you explain it in a better way? are you being racist for that?

no one and nothing is perfect, even in democracy. but without basic understanding about basic things is a must for anything to have a chance of working. 

Offline AsherO

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Re: Is democracy the right form of government everywhere?
« Reply #17 on: April 06, 2022, 03:44:13 PM »
i apologize for offending anyone but perhaps because i've lived in Israel for so long that i haven't realized that american society has decided to demonize common sense. i believe you are reading into my comments with liberal and lefty coated glasses, but perhaps that is the norm now.

do you deny that despite many of the african nations calling themselves democratic that they are anything but? can you explain it in a better way? are you being racist for that?

no one and nothing is perfect, even in democracy. but without basic understanding about basic things is a must for anything to have a chance of working. 

So basically if you call something common sense it isn’t racist anymore?
DDF FFB (Forum From Birth)

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Re: Is democracy the right form of government everywhere?
« Reply #18 on: April 06, 2022, 04:29:05 PM »


i apologize for offending anyone but perhaps because i've lived in Israel for so long that i haven't realized that american society has decided to demonize common sense. i believe you are reading into my comments with liberal and lefty coated glasses, but perhaps that is the norm now.

do you deny that despite many of the african nations calling themselves democratic that they are anything but? can you explain it in a better way? are you being racist for that?

no one and nothing is perfect, even in democracy. but without basic understanding about basic things is a must for anything to have a chance of working.

Lol, you don't answer a single thing and just call it common sense. Maybe, dear sir, your view point is the one demonizing common sense and your glasses are the tinted ones?


You totally missed mine - and apparently your own - points. Let's recap:

You started in the thread saying there are some places not "literate" enough for democracy. Then while pointing out the flagrant ignorance in a comment generalizing about an entire continent, I asked for the bar of literacy/education for people to be suited for democracy. You replied by saying that while Americans may not have any clue about any issues, they at least "know what's best for them". To which I then pointed out you are saying that Americans have that ability, while Africans don't. You gave no reason. The only reason is they are African. Arabs and Africans simply can't figure out what's best for them.

But you're not saying anything racist, it's just common sense, right?

So one more time: Please explain what bar of literacy/education all non Arabs and Africans have that they don't?


Please reread your comment and note that you say:

"do you deny that despite many of the african nations calling themselves democratic that they are anything but?"

In other words, to prove that the Africans are too stupid for democracy, you're pointing to dictatorships that are merely pretending to be democratic. Well maybe, Sherlock, the issue is not Africans being too idiotic to know what's best for them but the dictators undermining the democracy?

Are Russians too illiterate to have a democracy because their president jails or even murders reporters and political opponents?

Offline AsherO

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Re: Is democracy the right form of government everywhere?
« Reply #19 on: April 06, 2022, 04:32:07 PM »
“But Russians aren’t illiterate so you can’t compare the two…”

:P
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