Libs of Tik Tok

[Shmueli]

and what if in 50 years their propaganda machine was strong enough to make it a common belief that child abuse is also ok, then it becomes fine?

The unfortunate reality is that that is how it works.
Take gay marriage for example:
Started off as a mental health disorder, was considered by society as immoral, and was illegal for 2 men to have sex.
Became legal to have sex.
Became legal to have gay marriages.
Became a regular form of sex, equal to straight sex.
Became moral.
Is now becoming a culture that is meant to be honored above the rest of society.

That is why if we don't have things like Libs of TikTok and other resistance it may become acceptable to sexually abuse children in 50 years.

You can see it already now with the Children's National Hospital doing hysterectomy's on children younger than 16. That is pure child abuse, no way around it.

[CountValentine]

You can see it already now with the Children's National Hospital doing hysterectomy's on children younger than 16. That is pure child abuse, no way around it.

That is your view, and I might even agree with it.

What if someone has the view that not teaching children basics in school is child abuse? You can have your views without demonizing a whole community.

What this person is doing is demonizing a whole community. That is pure evil, no way around it. 

[Shmueli]

I might even agree with it.

I respect your honesty

[CountValentine]

I respect your honesty

There might be a reason to that on a 16-year-old, but I haven't seen one yet.

[m65]

That is your view, and I might even agree with it.

What if someone has the view that not teaching children basics in school is child abuse? You can have your views without demonizing a whole community.

What this person is doing is demonizing a whole community. That is pure evil, no way around it. 

the answer to this question and to other questions posed here, is that there is something called the truth. everything under that or above that just isnt the truth.

the truth is moral, and what isnt the truth isnt moral.

it really doesnt matter what u or i believe or think or feel or imagine, or what any propaganda machine manages to convince society

that being said, assuming someone believes that the truth is that certain relations are wrong/immoral, be it male/male, or adult/child, it doesnt make a freaking difference how many ppl engage in it or how many other ppl think its totally fine, or how many ppl will believe its fine in 50 years from now.

being that we know that the honorable count believes that anyone that one feels that wrong/immoral acts are being committed, must "call them out" (whatever the heck that means), he must understand others calling out acts which they believe are truthfully immoral. their is no difference how many ppl engage in those acts or believe that they are perfectly fine.

that is not pure evil, just pure truth

[dovy2]

That is your view, and I might even agree with it.

What if someone has the view that not teaching children basics in school is child abuse? You can have your views without demonizing a whole community.

What this person is doing is demonizing a whole community. That is pure evil, no way around it. 

that was just an example of where society MIGHT go.. his point still stands

[dovy2]

I remember watching a cute video, where these two fellas are arguing over a house if it's straight or not, each one pulls out their own level, which don't agree with each other, each one claims his level works and the other is the faulty one.... so they take it up to the local courthouse, and each judge pulls out his own level, so now there's 5 opinions! and no one knows who's right or wrong...
finally, they each match their level up to the royal palace, which they all agree was built straight, and now they know which level is correct...

moral of the story is, when going after personal opinions... there's no end, everyone thinks different, and what's moral or anti moral to one might not be to another... that's why we have the Torah, which is for sure correct, so we can match our values to it and not the other way

[CountValentine]

... there's no end, everyone thinks different, and what's moral or anti moral to one might not be to another... that's why we have the Torah, which is for sure correct, so we can match our values to it and not the other way

...as every religion claims. The point is that religion is just another personal opinion.

ETA: Next time I would use a different example as a level is based on basic engineering/science. 

[m65]

ETA: Next time I would use a different example as a level is based on basic engineering/science. 

so fauci decides???

[Shmueli]

...as every religion claims. The point is that religion is just another personal opinion.

ETA: Next time I would use a different example as a level is based on basic engineering/science. 

Morality cannot be based on science.

Science = Logic (it used to be at least     )
Morality is not based on logic. If it was, we would simply call it "logical" (and not "moral")

For example:
Tell me based on "basic engineering/science" why it is immoral for a mother and her son, or brother and sister to have sex together?
Why is it OK to kill a fly but not a human? Who decided that human life is greater than that of a bug?
U can't! There is no logical reason!

SO WHY IS IT IMMORAL?? WHO SET THE STANDARD?

The answer is that morality comes from God.
God says it is wrong to have sex with a sibling, parent, aunt, uncle, other family, and someone with the same sex as you.
God also says it is immoral to kill someone.

There is no other way around this....

[CountValentine]

The answer is that morality comes from God.

What about those that don't believe in G-d? They have no morals?

[YitzyS]

What about those that don't believe in G-d? They have no morals?

Correct. Because even if it may look like morals, they will change them to fit their own desires. Morals that man can change are not morals.

[ellemeno]

What about those that don't believe in G-d? They have no morals?

They can act moral for various reasons, but they have no morals.

[imayid2]

What about those that don't believe in G-d? They have no morals?

They may believe in natural law, though it’s not as popular as it once was:
https://traditiononline.org/wp-content/uploads/2018/09/0070-0092-1.pdf

Natural law theorists assert that fundamental principles of morality
need not be taught or legislated; rather, they are innate and can be ap- prehended by the light of reason alone. Those who disclaim a knowledge of such ingrained principles are regarded as either liars or as lacking in a faculty of moral awareness. Their opponents deny that there are a priori propositions; rather, moral principles are the product of cultural, soci- etal, pragmatic, legal and/or pedagogical factors. As Professor William K. Frankena famously described the controversy: Natural law theorists de- pict their detractors as suffering from moral blindness while philosophers who reject such a priori notions claim that natural law theorists suffer from moral hallucination.11

[Definitions]

Correct. Because even if it may look like morals, they will change them to fit their own desires. Morals that man can change are not morals.

What keeps you from not doing (and doing) what God wants? Is that any better than what keeps them from not doing wrong?

(Don't think that I thought this through perfectly. I didn't. It's just for mental gymnastics. This might have to be split into Torah and hashkafa thread)

[Shmueli]

What about those that don't believe in G-d? They have no morals?

How would I know?? Ask them!

You kinda just made my point! 

[Shmueli]

What keeps you from not doing (and doing) what God wants? Is that any better than what keeps them from not doing wrong?

(Don't think that I thought this through perfectly. I didn't. It's just for mental gymnastics. This might have to be split into Torah and hashkafa thread)

It's not about what "keeps" you from doing right or wrong. That's a different topic.

It's about what is right and wrong.
Who defines that?
If it is logic, then most immoral things would be moral...
It must come from a greater source which brings me to the same answer: LGBTQ+ activity is immoral.
Teaching and normalizing to kids is evil.
And allowing kids (ages 16 and under!!) to engage in it, and removing chunks of their innocent bodies irreversibly, is vicious.

[YitzyS]

What keeps you from not doing (and doing) what God wants? Is that any better than what keeps them from not doing wrong?

(Don't think that I thought this through perfectly. I didn't. It's just for mental gymnastics. This might have to be split into Torah and hashkafa thread)

My post comes from the words of Rav Elchonon Wasserman years before the persecutions in Germany. He said that Germans will kill Jews. Those assembled were shocked. "They German's are the most cultured people, how will they kill people?" Rav Elchonon cited the pasuk "Rak ein yiras Elokim bamakom hazah veyeharguni al dvar ishti." He said that in a society where there is no Yiras Hashem (fear of G-d), even the most moral/cultured society can come to kill people. They will just amend their laws to legalize murder.

[aygart]

What about those that don't believe in G-d? They have no morals?

There was a group who felt that getting rid of what they considered to be inferior humans was a moral evolutionary duty.

[Shmueli]

@CountValentine you have been uncharacteristically quiet today  .
Anything to say on the matter?

What defines morality, if not God, and why?