Poll

Should @countvalentine and @imayid2 stop with there endless bickering

Please yes!
5 (55.6%)
Please no I love it
1 (11.1%)
I don't mind
3 (33.3%)

Total Members Voted: 9

Voting closed: October 17, 2022, 05:07:57 PM

Author Topic: Supreme Court Will Strike Down Roe v Wade  (Read 136138 times)

Offline imayid2

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Re: Supreme Court Will Strike Down Roe v Wade
« Reply #1600 on: October 13, 2022, 02:18:51 PM »
Those same websites say life does not begin at conception.
Sit down this may come as a shock :). They mean an unborn baby doesn't have the same "life" status as an already been born one.

Offline CountValentine

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Re: Supreme Court Will Strike Down Roe v Wade
« Reply #1601 on: October 13, 2022, 02:21:54 PM »
Lol and no doubt according to your self imposed definition concluded that Judaism allows abortion like the link disgustingly and disingenuously states.
Hello, anyone home?
According to Jewish sites that members have sent me to state life doesn't start at conception.
They also state abortion is allowed under certain circumstances.
I am leaving my views out of it.
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Offline imayid2

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Re: Supreme Court Will Strike Down Roe v Wade
« Reply #1602 on: October 13, 2022, 02:45:59 PM »
According to Jewish sites that members have sent me to state life doesn't start at conception.
Hello, anyone home?
They mean an unborn baby doesn't have the same "life" status as an already been born one.

They also state abortion is allowed under certain circumstances.
That is true. But being that many/most/all of the "circumstances" are where there is acute danger to the mothers life, It has nothing to do when "life begins"! Because the same would be true if an innocent child would be unwittingly threatening his/her mother or another persons life directly. Judaism, unlike Christianity, sanctions killing the "pursuer" in that scenario. So you tried
leaving my views out of it.
But didn't quite succeed.

Offline imayid2

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Re: Supreme Court Will Strike Down Roe v Wade
« Reply #1603 on: October 13, 2022, 02:52:02 PM »
You want a truthful analysis of Judaisms view of abortion?
It’s here:
https://traditiononline.org/wp-content/uploads/2019/02/Abortion-in-Halakhic.pdf
And that was before R. Feinstein changed the dynamics.

Offline CountValentine

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Re: Supreme Court Will Strike Down Roe v Wade
« Reply #1604 on: October 13, 2022, 02:53:54 PM »
But didn't quite succeed.
You have your head so buried in the sand it is ridicules.

All I have posted was views of the Jewish woman in the suit and from respected Jewish sites.

You can keep promoting the lie that these are my views, and I will keep calling the lie out.

You keep giving the fish out of water a bad name. There hasn't been a pretzel made which would describe all your twists and turns.  :P
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Offline CountValentine

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Re: Supreme Court Will Strike Down Roe v Wade
« Reply #1605 on: October 13, 2022, 02:57:02 PM »
You want a truthful analysis of Judaisms view of abortion?
It’s here:
https://traditiononline.org/wp-content/uploads/2019/02/Abortion-in-Halakhic.pdf
And that was before R. Feinstein changed the dynamics.
49 pages? It only took you a couple pages and had ten different pretzels.  ;)
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Offline imayid2

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Re: Supreme Court Will Strike Down Roe v Wade
« Reply #1606 on: October 13, 2022, 03:09:40 PM »
You have your head so buried in the sand it is ridicules.
All I have posted was views of the Jewish woman in the suit and from respected Jewish sites.
No you keep convoluting what they say, or in this case in point quoted a organization who completely convoluted Judaism in such an obvious way that you have no excuse to fall for it.
Sigh.
Time for Chaim.

Offline CountValentine

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Re: Supreme Court Will Strike Down Roe v Wade
« Reply #1607 on: October 13, 2022, 03:23:49 PM »
...or in this case in point quoted a organization who completely convoluted Judaism in such an obvious way that you have no excuse to fall for it.
So you believe members here pulled a fast one on me? These sites are not legit?
https://www.myjewishlearning.com/
https://www.chabad.org/
No you keep convoluting what they say,
You just keep making stuff up. I didn't convolute anything.
This is a direct quote.
“Judaism has never defined life beginning at conception,” the suit said
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Offline imayid2

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Re: Supreme Court Will Strike Down Roe v Wade
« Reply #1608 on: October 13, 2022, 03:59:07 PM »
So you believe members here pulled a fast one on me? These sites are not legit?
https://www.myjewishlearning.com/
https://www.chabad.org/
What in heavens name do you see on these sites different than I have been consistently telling you?
https://www.chabad.org/library/article_cdo/aid/529077/jewish/Judaism-and-Abortion.htm
The Fetus in Judaism
We know that the fetus is not considered as “alive” as someone who has been born. But neither is it simply a mass of flesh without a soul.
You just keep making stuff up. I didn't convolute anything.
You are convoluting what they say by imposing your absolutist definition of “life” on them, thus suggesting that in their view “life” in all aspects only begins at birth. They would never agree to that. They, for the umpteenth time, meant that a embryo or a fetus, isn’t recognized as a full fledged human being. NOT that the embryo/fetus isn’t recognized in any aspect as a human “life”.
Sheesh. NO ONE disagrees that a fetus can own property before it’s born according to Halacha! What do you want to call that?
Quote
This is a direct quote.
“Judaism has never defined life beginning at conception,” the suit said
That direct quote is from an article that also says the most Jews say abortion is allowed. That is an utter distortion of traditional Judaism. So when THEY say "life" is defined at conception they mean something totally different than the legit sites you mentioned. You are intelligent enough to realize this.

You have some narrative here in which my "political views" are defining my Halachik understanding here. Give it up.

Offline CountValentine

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Re: Supreme Court Will Strike Down Roe v Wade
« Reply #1609 on: October 13, 2022, 04:06:05 PM »
That direct quote is from an article that also says the most Jews say abortion is allowed.
You always want to put your narrative on everything.

Most Jews do say abortion is allowed. At what point is up for discussion but that statement is a fact. Even you agree abortions are allowed. You have have strict standards when they are allowed but they are allowed.
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Re: Supreme Court Will Strike Down Roe v Wade
« Reply #1610 on: October 13, 2022, 04:10:57 PM »
What in heavens name do you see on these sites different than I have been consistently telling you?
https://www.chabad.org/library/article_cdo/aid/529077/jewish/Judaism-and-Abortion.htm
Since the Torah obligates only a monetary compensation but no capital punishment, the Torah seemingly views the fetus as property, not as a human life.

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Offline imayid2

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Re: Supreme Court Will Strike Down Roe v Wade
« Reply #1611 on: October 13, 2022, 04:12:17 PM »
Most Jews do say abortion is allowed. At what point is up for discussion but that statement is a fact.
I agree that it is a fact that most Jews think that. It is also a fact that it is categorically and demonstrably wrong.
Even you agree abortions are allowed. You have have strict standards when they are allowed but they are allowed.
WHEN THEY ARE ALLOWED IT ISN"T BECAUSE THE BABY ISN"T YET BORN! IT HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH WHEN LIFE STARTS! IT WOULD HYPOTHETICALLY BE TRUE THAT A CHILD WOULD BE ALLOWED TO BE KILLED FOR SIMILAR CIRCUMSTANCES AS WELL!
What don't you get about this?
« Last Edit: October 13, 2022, 04:15:36 PM by imayid2 »

Offline imayid2

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Re: Supreme Court Will Strike Down Roe v Wade
« Reply #1612 on: October 13, 2022, 04:14:40 PM »
Since the Torah obligates only a monetary compensation but no capital punishment, the Torah seemingly views the fetus as property, not as a human life.
This is false. It is indicative of the fact that the fetus isn't enough of a life to warrant the death penalty (for a Jew), not that it is merely property. This is clear in the Talmud.
ETA I see you quoted the article directly. That is the presentation of the "seemingly" contradictory statements. Not the conclusion.
« Last Edit: October 13, 2022, 04:20:32 PM by imayid2 »

Offline CountValentine

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Re: Supreme Court Will Strike Down Roe v Wade
« Reply #1613 on: October 13, 2022, 04:18:37 PM »
This is false. It is indicative of the fact that the fetus isn't enough of a life to warrant the death penalty (for a Jew), not that it is merely property. This is clear in the Talmud.
Take it up with chabad.org who you quoted from and not me.

Just so I have it straight the Talmud is not the Torah, correct?
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Offline imayid2

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Re: Supreme Court Will Strike Down Roe v Wade
« Reply #1614 on: October 13, 2022, 04:21:32 PM »
Take it up with chabad.org who you quoted from and not me.

Just so I have it straight the Talmud is not the Torah, correct?
see edit

Offline CountValentine

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Re: Supreme Court Will Strike Down Roe v Wade
« Reply #1615 on: October 13, 2022, 04:22:18 PM »
I agree that it is a fact that most Jews think that. It is also a fact that it is categorically and demonstrably wrong.
So you know better than most. I see the problem now.  :)
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Offline imayid2

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Re: Supreme Court Will Strike Down Roe v Wade
« Reply #1616 on: October 13, 2022, 04:24:13 PM »
So you know better than most. I see the problem now.  :)
Irreligious Jews have no standing to say what Judaism's view on abortion is. Judaism is a religion.

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Re: Supreme Court Will Strike Down Roe v Wade
« Reply #1617 on: October 13, 2022, 04:25:11 PM »
ETA I see you quoted the article directly. That is the presentation of the "seemingly" contradictory statements. Not the conclusion.
This whole discussion is others views. I have left my political/religious views out of it.
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Re: Supreme Court Will Strike Down Roe v Wade
« Reply #1618 on: October 13, 2022, 04:26:39 PM »
Irreligious Jews have no standing to say what Judaism's view on abortion is. Judaism is a religion.
Now you are judging others on how religious they are. The problem here could be no clearer but you will never see it.
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Offline imayid2

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Re: Supreme Court Will Strike Down Roe v Wade
« Reply #1619 on: October 13, 2022, 04:29:16 PM »
This whole discussion is others views. I have left my political/religious views out of it.
There is no other "view". There is delusion.