Poll

Should @countvalentine and @imayid2 stop with there endless bickering

Please yes!
5 (55.6%)
Please no I love it
1 (11.1%)
I don't mind
3 (33.3%)

Total Members Voted: 9

Voting closed: October 17, 2022, 05:07:57 PM

Author Topic: Supreme Court Will Strike Down Roe v Wade  (Read 123156 times)

Offline PlatinumGuy

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״וזה כלל גדול: שישנא אדם כל דבר שקר. וכל מה שיוסיף שנאה לדרכי השקר – יוסיף אהבה לתורה.״ - אורחות צדיקים

Offline imayid2

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Re: Supreme Court Will Strike Down Roe v Wade
« Reply #941 on: July 19, 2022, 01:24:57 AM »
From an absolutely fascinating interview with Rabbi Moshe Tendler in 1989
http://thejewishreview.org/articles/?id=175
 
Jewish Review: This raises an important question, and that is, should we, as Jews, strive to achieve a state of affairs in which American law coincides with Jewish law on matters such as abortion, or should we rather campaign for wider latitude and individual discretion within secular law, on the theory that with such latitude there would be fewer obstacles to American Jews following Jewish law on any given issue?

Rabbi Tendler: This is a very astute and important question. As you most likely know, the Lubavitcher Rebbe took an approach based on the idea that the seven Noahidic laws are so universal and so categorically imperative on every human being that we, as Jews, have a mitzvah to, so to speak, ?push? them and hence, to foster a legal system that would, for example, prevent a Gentile from committing an abortion. There is no doubt that he is 100% correct from a halakhic point of view. It is a mitzvah for the Jew to en?courage the Gentile to perform his mitzvot. It is forbidden for a Jew to mislead a non- Jew into sin. We derive this from the Torah: ?Do not place a stumbling block before the blind.? It is hard to second guess the Rebbe either halakhically or politically. This is, of course, an issue of public welfare, and the question is whether or not the public welfare is served by legislation banning abortion. Here, I think, I could see two opinions. My father-in-law, the late Rabbi Moshe Feinstein, felt very strongly that allowing government to legislate in any area of morals and ethics gives them a toe-hold in religion, and if you let them in a little bit, the government will begin toexpand its role in this area and start less - lating what is proper to teach and what isproper to do in areligious context. Now, Rabbi Feinstein had lived some 10 to 15 years under Stalin and his experience of the Russian government's total involvement in the religious life ofthe Jew was so traumatic that he held fast to the idea that we should keep the government away from religion even in those instances where its legislation might seem to be supportive of the Torah point of view. For Rabbi Feinstein, the complete separation of church and state, was absolutely necessary for the survival of any minority group. What is the right approach? I really don't know. I am a strong believer in the separation of church and state and I believe that minority religious rights are best protected if government protects the rights of each individual to practice his religion without imposing any restrictions. I don't want to be the one making a decision between the Lubavitcher Rebbe's opinion and Rabbi Feinstein's opinion, but I lean inthe direction of Rabbi Feinstein. Perhaps there is a little nepotism at work here.

Jewish Review: How then does this apply to the recent United States Supreme Court consideration of the doctrine of Roe v. Wade, the right to abortion on demand? How would you want the court to decide this issue?

Rabbi Tendler: The impending review oft his landmark decision reawakened both the ?Pro-life? and ?Pro-choice? forces in society. Surely the Roe v. Wade decision that extended the right to privacy to include the right to abort any time before fetal viability (the end of the second trimester) should be overturned. The ?legalizing? of abortion led, de facto, to condoning abortion as morally acceptable. This was not the intent of the Supreme Court's opinion, but it was, nonetheless, the result. The primacy of maternal life as justifiable reason to abort, must be clearly stated and maintained. However, the ?frivolous? abortion for sex selection of to prevent discomfiture during a planned vacation must be declared illegal. Abortion because of rape, incest, fear of a probably genetic disease, or great familial stress must be left to individual conscience in our pluralistic society, without legal intrusion into the patient-physician relationship.

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Re: Supreme Court Will Strike Down Roe v Wade
« Reply #942 on: July 19, 2022, 02:06:21 AM »
״וזה כלל גדול: שישנא אדם כל דבר שקר. וכל מה שיוסיף שנאה לדרכי השקר – יוסיף אהבה לתורה.״ - אורחות צדיקים

Offline avromie7

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Re: Supreme Court Will Strike Down Roe v Wade
« Reply #943 on: July 19, 2022, 06:25:26 AM »
I wonder what people who type "u" instead of "you" do with all their free time.

Offline avromie7

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Re: Supreme Court Will Strike Down Roe v Wade
« Reply #944 on: July 19, 2022, 06:35:26 AM »
https://twitter.com/politico/status/1549025229862756352
I don't understand what this story has to do with abortions. It's about states using location tracking data. The most prolific user of this data is the staunchly pro-life state of California.
I wonder what people who type "u" instead of "you" do with all their free time.

Offline dm123

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Re: Supreme Court Will Strike Down Roe v Wade
« Reply #945 on: July 19, 2022, 07:15:49 AM »
Thanks for posting the interview! I saw it a few months ago (before I started posting here), lots of interesting points in it
As you most likely know, the Lubavitcher Rebbe took an approach based on the idea that the seven Noahidic laws are so universal and so categorically imperative on every human being that we, as Jews, have a mitzvah to, so to speak, ?push? them and hence, to foster a legal system that would, for example, prevent a Gentile from committing an abortion.

I asked on Ask a lubavitcher anything although so far the Lubavitchers I've asked IRL were unfamiliar with this stance (pushing anti-abortion legislation - although it may be correct based on multiple other statements/guidances from the Rebbe)

Also interesting to note he points out the source of the "pro life" side:

e.g.-Rabbi Tendler: When we treat the fetus as arodef, a pursuer who is endangeringthe life of the mother, we don't do so in the context of an ideal mother who is perfectly healthy. We do so with a mother who has a heart condition or a kidney condition, for example, which is not the fault of the baby. Likewise, in the Klein case, we have a woman with a brain trauma which has put her into a coma. It is important to point out that the thrust to defend the Klein fetus came from the ?Pro-lifers,? who are largely Catholic, and who follow the edict of their Pope, who has been resting his prestige on his ability to prevail on the abortion issue. We must realize that, in the Catholic Church, fetal life takes precedence over maternal life, because in their view, a fetus, unlike the mother, is yet without sin. This is a fundamental difference with the Jewish point of view on abortion.

and e.g.-Rabbi Tendler: The courts in eleven states of the union have actually subjected a woman to a caesarean section in order to save the life of a fetus when the woman had objected to the use of a caesarean section. In what is known as the ?District of Columbia Case,? a pregnant woman who was dying of lymphoma was ordered by the court to have a caesarean in the hope of saving the baby. The woman was dying and had, perhaps, only a week or two to live, but she knew that the caesarean, though it might save the baby, would kill her. She was fully conscious and she opposed the caesarean, and said she wanted to live as long as God gave her days. The court ordered the caesarean, and it was performed. The woman died and unfortunately, the baby died as well. Now, this kind of total disregard for maternal life which was part of the Pro-life opposition in the Klein case, actually has its origins in these types of cases. In the D.C. case the judge, who happened to be Catholic, imposed his theological beliefs on the mother, ignoring the Judaeo-Biblical heritage in favor of the Christian point of view.

Anyone familiar with a catholic source that has the catholic stance clearly stated? Do protestants and other denominations share this stance?

Another noteworthy point is R' Moshe would seem to be both ardently anti-abortion AND anti anti-abortion legislation

Offline dm123

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Re: Supreme Court Will Strike Down Roe v Wade
« Reply #946 on: July 19, 2022, 07:24:34 AM »
This is propaganda, it's not what the bill says.

What's not what the bill says / propaganda? The bill in the pic is photoshopped? Seems clear to me although I may be grossly misinterpreting it: "protection of the laws pf this state from the moment of fertilization until the moment of death"..."Any person has the right to defend his or her own life or the life of another person, even by the use of deadly force if necessary, from the willful destruction by another person"

Seems to be an actual bill up for vote: https://www.ncleg.gov/Sessions/2021/Bills/House/PDF/H158v1.pdf https://www.ncleg.gov/BillLookUp/2021/H158

Offline imayid2

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Re: Supreme Court Will Strike Down Roe v Wade
« Reply #947 on: July 19, 2022, 07:48:26 AM »
What's not what the bill says / propaganda? The bill in the pic is photoshopped? Seems clear to me although I may be grossly misinterpreting it: "protection of the laws pf this state from the moment of fertilization until the moment of death"..."Any person has the right to defend his or her own life or the life of another person, even by the use of deadly force if necessary, from the willful destruction by another person"

Seems to be an actual bill up for vote: https://www.ncleg.gov/Sessions/2021/Bills/House/PDF/H158v1.pdf https://www.ncleg.gov/BillLookUp/2021/H158
No doubt it’s radically written, but if someone “intends” to murder, you can’t go kill them. You call the police. The application represented in that tweet is pure propaganda, not to mention a complete non reality because how exactly do you save the baby by murdering the mother.
Not the first time it’s up for a vote, it’s been struck down before.

Offline dm123

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Re: Supreme Court Will Strike Down Roe v Wade
« Reply #948 on: July 19, 2022, 07:56:29 AM »
No doubt it’s radically written, but if someone “intends” to murder, you can’t go kill them. You call the police. The application represented in that tweet is pure propaganda, not to mention a complete non reality because how exactly do you save the baby by murdering the mother.
Not the first time it’s up for a vote, it’s been struck down before.
According to that law it seems you could go kill them. Would probably be difficult to establish how you knew they were going for an abortion and how you planned to save the fetus after mothers death but law says "Any person has the right" so I'm not sure why you're saying one would need to call the police?
« Last Edit: July 19, 2022, 08:10:51 AM by dm123 »

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Re: Supreme Court Will Strike Down Roe v Wade
« Reply #949 on: July 19, 2022, 08:37:24 AM »



Not the first time it’s up for a vote, it’s been struck down before.
Not very reliable.
Feelings don't care about your facts

Offline avromie7

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Re: Supreme Court Will Strike Down Roe v Wade
« Reply #950 on: July 19, 2022, 08:41:02 AM »
According to that law it seems you could go kill them. Would probably be difficult to establish how you knew they were going for an abortion and how you planned to save the fetus after mothers death but law says "Any person has the right" so I'm not sure why you're saying one would need to call the police?
It wouldn't apply to the mother, but it would apply to the person performing the abortion.
I wonder what people who type "u" instead of "you" do with all their free time.

Offline imayid2

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Re: Supreme Court Will Strike Down Roe v Wade
« Reply #951 on: July 19, 2022, 08:42:11 AM »
It wouldn't apply to the mother
Why not?

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Re: Supreme Court Will Strike Down Roe v Wade
« Reply #952 on: July 19, 2022, 08:43:40 AM »
Why not?
Because that wouldn't save the fetus
Feelings don't care about your facts

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Re: Supreme Court Will Strike Down Roe v Wade
« Reply #953 on: July 19, 2022, 08:59:03 AM »
It wouldn't apply to the mother, but it would apply to the person performing the abortion.
Why wouldn't it apply to the mother? The secretary at the abortion clinic, knowing they have the right equipment on hand to save the fetus, wouldn't be legally justified in shooting a mother who walks in for an abortion? Or an emt with the right equipment (or whoever) who knows the mother is heading to an abortion appointment can't legally kill the mother?

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Re: Supreme Court Will Strike Down Roe v Wade
« Reply #954 on: July 19, 2022, 09:12:39 AM »
Why wouldn't it apply to the mother? The secretary at the abortion clinic, knowing they have the right equipment on hand to save the fetus, wouldn't be legally justified in shooting a mother who walks in for an abortion? Or an emt with the right equipment (or whoever) who knows the mother is heading to an abortion appointment can't legally kill the mother?
Come on man
Feelings don't care about your facts

Offline Dan

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Re: Supreme Court Will Strike Down Roe v Wade
« Reply #955 on: July 19, 2022, 09:26:08 AM »
Rabbi Tendler: This is a very astute and important question. As you most likely know, the Lubavitcher Rebbe took an approach based on the idea that the seven Noahidic laws are so universal and so categorically imperative on every human being that we, as Jews, have a mitzvah to, so to speak, ?push? them and hence, to foster a legal system that would, for example, prevent a Gentile from committing an abortion.
I haven't seen where the Rebbe explicitly said anything about changing the law of the land for this issue. Is Rabbi Tendler just extrapolating from the Rebbe's campaign for awareness of the 7 Noahide laws?

The laws where the Rebbe fought for were typically in Israel regarding Mi hu yehudi and shleimus ha'aretz, which he considered existential threats to the Jewish people.

But by all means, I'm open to primary sources.
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Re: Supreme Court Will Strike Down Roe v Wade
« Reply #958 on: July 19, 2022, 09:35:52 AM »

OTOH, maybe that only applies in Israel?

https://thecjn.ca/news/canada/abortion-often-permitted-judaism-rabbi-says/

I can't find anything where the Rebbe spoke specifically about about Roe V Wade or trying to influence US law on abortion, so anything proclaiming the represent the Rebbe's position on this in chu"l seems dubious to me.
« Last Edit: July 19, 2022, 09:41:01 AM by Dan »
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Re: Supreme Court Will Strike Down Roe v Wade
« Reply #959 on: July 19, 2022, 09:39:22 AM »
Come on man
What? Iirc the Texas law has a clear exclusion of criminalization for the mother, possibly if she even does an abortion on herself she's exempt. However from what I've seen in this one so far, the mother would be included in any person... wilful destruction of another person. You don't like the examples fine but the law indicates the mother would be included