Poll

Should @countvalentine and @imayid2 stop with there endless bickering

Please yes!
5 (55.6%)
Please no I love it
1 (11.1%)
I don't mind
3 (33.3%)

Total Members Voted: 9

Voting closed: October 17, 2022, 05:07:57 PM

Author Topic: Supreme Court Will Strike Down Roe v Wade  (Read 124630 times)

Offline imayid2

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Re: Supreme Court Will Strike Down Roe v Wade
« Reply #1660 on: October 14, 2022, 12:14:16 AM »

That is exactly what the SA says. In the same circumstances a fetus gets aborted but if it is far enough in the birth process it does not. Are you referring to a different circumstance?
Yes. I am referring to other circumstances where משמים קא רדפי wouldn't be a factor. Anytime after childbirth. I said "similar" circumstances.

Offline aygart

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Re: Supreme Court Will Strike Down Roe v Wade
« Reply #1661 on: October 14, 2022, 12:18:45 AM »
Yes. I am referring to other circumstances where משמים קא רדפי wouldn't be a factor. Anytime after childbirth. I said "similar" circumstances.
Then you are making a whole cholent and I am not sure what you are trying to get at.
Feelings don't care about your facts

Offline imayid2

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Re: Supreme Court Will Strike Down Roe v Wade
« Reply #1662 on: October 14, 2022, 12:23:46 AM »
No I didn't. If the issue is more than RMF then why pin it on that?
It is the easiest, and perfectly valid, way of getting my point across, while simultaneously hammering in another  perfectly relevant point, which was that not necessarily does that fact that abortion is at times permitted, indicate that the level "life" in play is a non "life" and not subject to "murder".
Now this is a point I've tried to make a few times, but it's generally ignored. And used consistently "against" "my" position that abortion is "murder". So it's something I have an incentive to explain. No need to argue about it. Just accept the fact that this perfectly valid opinion exists in the views of Judaism.
« Last Edit: October 14, 2022, 12:28:41 AM by imayid2 »

Offline imayid2

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Re: Supreme Court Will Strike Down Roe v Wade
« Reply #1663 on: October 14, 2022, 12:26:12 AM »
Then you are making a whole cholent and I am not sure what you are trying to get at.
See above. Simple point. The fact that abortion is allowed in life threatening cases is because the baby is a rodef. In a completely born child there would be no question. Only bec משמים קא רדפי is there a need for the point that the babys life isn't equal. That is RMFs position.

Offline imayid2

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Re: Supreme Court Will Strike Down Roe v Wade
« Reply #1664 on: October 14, 2022, 12:29:49 AM »
Then you are making a whole cholent
At least pretzels are out of style finally :)

Offline aygart

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Re: Supreme Court Will Strike Down Roe v Wade
« Reply #1665 on: October 14, 2022, 12:43:40 AM »
It is the easiest, and perfectly valid, way of getting my point across, while simultaneously hammering in another  perfectly relevant point, which was that not necessarily does that fact that abortion is at times permitted, indicate that the level "life" in play is a non "life" and not subject to "murder".
Now this is a point I've tried to make a few times, but it's generally ignored. And used consistently "against" "my" position that abortion is "murder". So it's something I have an incentive to explain. No need to argue about it. Just accept the fact that this perfectly valid opinion exists in the views of Judaism.
It can also be a gradual path to "full lifehood"
You two are talking different languages. You would be much better off clarifying your position than trying to prove a point that people don't understand you are trying to make.
Feelings don't care about your facts

Offline imayid2

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Re: Supreme Court Will Strike Down Roe v Wade
« Reply #1666 on: October 14, 2022, 12:50:55 AM »
What are you talking about. You keep going off on these tangents. Here is the example I gave that you said was a distortion. Judaism or conceiving has nothing to do with it.
Do you realize that "murder" can be interpreted differently? The "charges" my not be "murder" charges. But the fetus is being killed right? And everyone agrees a non Jew incurs the death penalty for doing so. So the technicalities of the violation is up for debate, but the general point that Judaisms views abortion quite severely is not. Stop getting caught up on definitions and catchphrases.
Everyone one agrees to this general sentiment which is stated by the Zohar:
"One who kills his own child, the fetus his wife is pregnant with, and causes the fetus's death, destroying the creation of G-d, there are those that kill, this man killed his own child! Three evils he has committed which the world cannot tolerate, and this causes a slow undiscerned deterioration in the world, G-d removes His presence from the world, war, hunger, and plague come on the world, the one who killed his child destroyed G-d's creation, he pushed away the presence of G-d which now has no rest, on this the spirit of G-d weeps, and the world is judged with the above, woe to that person, it would have been better had he not been born"
-Zohar Shemos-
So tell me, if everyone agrees to this, would you call it murder?

Again, I have no problem if you don't like or agree to Judaisms view on this. Just understand that I'm hardly conveying my own "personal" view. And just because not every link you were sent didn't elucidate this at length, dont mean it aint so.

Offline WAM

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Re: Supreme Court Will Strike Down Roe v Wade
« Reply #1667 on: October 14, 2022, 12:51:27 AM »
If one believes "life begins at birth" then that means "life does not begin at conception".

No matter how many pretzels you eat that fact does not change!!!

That depends how you define birth.
/s

Offline WAM

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Re: Supreme Court Will Strike Down Roe v Wade
« Reply #1668 on: October 14, 2022, 12:58:19 AM »
I am referring to your view on abortion.

Does anybody here know @imayid2's view?

Offline imayid2

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Re: Supreme Court Will Strike Down Roe v Wade
« Reply #1669 on: October 14, 2022, 01:09:25 AM »
You two are talking different languages. You would be much better off clarifying your position than trying to prove a point that people don't understand you are trying to make.
I do not know what I'm being requested to clarify that hasn't been clarified. If you'd be more specific it would be appreciated.
There is no productive point in squabbling if the English word "life" or "murder", apply to a fetus when we are discussing Judaisms view of abortion. What is meaningful is the overall picture of the severity, and indisputably extremely limited cases in which it is allowed. And that according to the Talmud it's explicitly derived from the words שופך דם אדם in regard to a non Jew. Other than excruciating circumstances a fetus can't be killed. In regards to a non Jew it's referred to as spilling blood by the Talmud. Everyone can decide at that point if they are comfortable with applying the words "life" and "murder" at that point. Hey its murder for the non Jew but not for the Jew? That makes sense to anyone from a linguistic standpoint?
Is a cow alive? Can it be "murdered"?

Offline WAM

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Re: Supreme Court Will Strike Down Roe v Wade
« Reply #1670 on: October 14, 2022, 01:55:14 AM »
I do not know what I'm being requested to clarify that hasn't been clarified. If you'd be more specific it would be appreciated.
There is no productive point in squabbling if the English word "life" or "murder", apply to a fetus when we are discussing Judaisms view of abortion. What is meaningful is the overall picture of the severity, and indisputably extremely limited cases in which it is allowed. And that according to the Talmud it's explicitly derived from the words שופך דם אדם in regard to a non Jew. Other than excruciating circumstances a fetus can't be killed. In regards to a non Jew it's referred to as spilling blood by the Talmud. Everyone can decide at that point if they are comfortable with applying the words "life" and "murder" at that point. Hey its murder for the non Jew but not for the Jew? That makes sense to anyone from a linguistic standpoint?
Is a cow alive? Can it be "murdered"?
English != לשון הקודש
Perhaps I misunderstood, but I think CV was asking questions in plain English and the response he got from you was a pretzel/cholent. Perhaps you understand exactly what you mean, and maybe others here also do. But I just got confused with your answers to CV.
Are you purposefully not answering him with a clear answer?
He asked a yes/no question and you answered it depends on how you define life. Is it wrong to expect you to instead define life and then give your yes/no?

Offline CountValentine

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Re: Supreme Court Will Strike Down Roe v Wade
« Reply #1671 on: October 14, 2022, 06:35:54 AM »
Perhaps I misunderstood, but I think CV was asking questions in plain English and the response he got from you was a pretzel/cholent.
You didn't misunderstand anything.
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Offline imayid2

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Re: Supreme Court Will Strike Down Roe v Wade
« Reply #1672 on: October 14, 2022, 07:36:35 AM »
English != לשון הקודש
Perhaps I misunderstood, but I think CV was asking questions in plain English and the response he got from you was a pretzel/cholent. Perhaps you understand exactly what you mean, and maybe others here also do. But I just got confused with your answers to CV.
Are you purposefully not answering him with a clear answer?
He asked a yes/no question and you answered it depends on how you define life. Is it wrong to expect you to instead define life and then give your yes/no?
It is ludicrous to insist on a yes or no response to a complex question which cannot be adequately  answered with a yes or no.

Offline CountValentine

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Re: Supreme Court Will Strike Down Roe v Wade
« Reply #1673 on: October 14, 2022, 08:06:22 AM »
It is ludicrous to insist on a yes or no response to a complex question which cannot be adequately  answered with a yes or no.
You have said many times that abortion is murder. That is not a yes or no question?
I am asking about your views. Don't throw your religion under the bus again claiming something is their view.
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Offline imayid2

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Re: Supreme Court Will Strike Down Roe v Wade
« Reply #1674 on: October 14, 2022, 09:07:41 AM »
You have said many times that abortion is murder. That is not a yes or no question?
I am asking about your views. Don't throw your religion under the bus again claiming something is their view.
It is a form of murder. Not quite the murder of a full fledged homo sapien, but of a lesser mid developing form. There are multiple levels of a human soul, and not all are present yet.
Why do you consistently claim that this isn't in line with my religion?

Offline imayid2

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Re: Supreme Court Will Strike Down Roe v Wade
« Reply #1675 on: October 14, 2022, 09:18:59 AM »
Has anyone seen @CountValentine explain his views on abortion?

Offline CountValentine

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Re: Supreme Court Will Strike Down Roe v Wade
« Reply #1676 on: October 14, 2022, 09:26:25 AM »
Why do you consistently claim that this isn't in line with my religion?
I never claimed that. I want your views. If your views are the same as your religion that is fine, but they are still your views.

I have seen many discussions you have had with many different members where they disagree on your interpretation of different religious subjects. When you say this or that about your religion, I have no idea if that is correct. Let's stick to your views.
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Offline imayid2

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Re: Supreme Court Will Strike Down Roe v Wade
« Reply #1677 on: October 14, 2022, 09:26:44 AM »
Are you purposefully not answering him with a clear answer?
He asked a yes/no question and you answered it depends on how you define life. Is it wrong to expect you to instead define life and then give your yes/no?
Why are you ignoring my earlier response where I explained plainly it depends how it is being used?
Hmm. If life means the same as a born person than itís true. But it would be true in the third trimester too.
If they mean abortion is allowed itís false. For the most part itís prohibited.
If they mean that in the earliest part of pregnancy exemptions are easier to obtain, it hinges on halachik debate, with some very eminent Rabbis equating all stages.
if you think something is a pretzel/Cholent maybe specify what you're referring to so I know which particular I haven't done a good job explaining?

Offline imayid2

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Re: Supreme Court Will Strike Down Roe v Wade
« Reply #1678 on: October 14, 2022, 09:27:46 AM »
I have seen many discussions you have had with many different members where they disagree on your interpretation of different religious subjects. When you say this or that about your religion, I have no idea if that is correct.
Paging anyone that disagrees with something I've said

Offline imayid2

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Re: Supreme Court Will Strike Down Roe v Wade
« Reply #1679 on: October 14, 2022, 09:28:56 AM »
I never claimed that. I want your views. If your views are the same as your religion that is fine, but they are still your views.
I have given it to you, like multiple times.
What is your view?