Poll

Should @countvalentine and @imayid2 stop with there endless bickering

Please yes!
5 (55.6%)
Please no I love it
1 (11.1%)
I don't mind
3 (33.3%)

Total Members Voted: 9

Voting closed: October 17, 2022, 05:07:57 PM

Author Topic: Supreme Court Will Strike Down Roe v Wade  (Read 131905 times)

Offline aygart

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Re: Supreme Court Will Strike Down Roe v Wade
« Reply #1720 on: October 14, 2022, 04:35:33 PM »
It is true. An unwitting pursuer is allowed to be killed. Even an innocent child.
How would you word it?
I wouldn't use the word murder. That is for when it is unjustified.
Feelings don't care about your facts

Offline imayid2

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Re: Supreme Court Will Strike Down Roe v Wade
« Reply #1721 on: October 14, 2022, 04:36:02 PM »
I wouldn't use the word murder. That is for when it is unjustified.
Ok I agree.

Offline CountValentine

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Re: Supreme Court Will Strike Down Roe v Wade
« Reply #1722 on: October 14, 2022, 04:41:48 PM »
Can you explain how explaining my religions view equals forcing my view on others?
You believe abortion is murder and don't want others to make that choice or have you changed/evolved on this also?
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Offline CountValentine

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Re: Supreme Court Will Strike Down Roe v Wade
« Reply #1723 on: October 14, 2022, 04:42:41 PM »
I wouldn't use the word murder. That is for when it is unjustified.
I am glad someone understands what murder means.
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Offline imayid2

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Re: Supreme Court Will Strike Down Roe v Wade
« Reply #1724 on: October 14, 2022, 04:44:35 PM »
I am glad someone understands what murder means.
Lol. So it is word definitions that so trouble you.

Offline imayid2

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Re: Supreme Court Will Strike Down Roe v Wade
« Reply #1725 on: October 14, 2022, 04:48:45 PM »
You believe abortion is murder and don't want others to make that choice
Right. How does that equal me forcing my beliefs on others? Believing my religion equals forcing my beliefs? Lol forcing beliefs on others is usually a different religions issue.
or have you changed/evolved on this also?
I donít remember you pinpointing where I changed. Did I miss it or did you ignore my request?

Offline imayid2

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Re: Supreme Court Will Strike Down Roe v Wade
« Reply #1726 on: October 14, 2022, 04:50:22 PM »
You believe abortion is murder
Why do you refer to all abortions with one brush? Are you specifically referring to before viability?

Offline CountValentine

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Re: Supreme Court Will Strike Down Roe v Wade
« Reply #1727 on: October 14, 2022, 04:50:35 PM »
Lol. So it is word definitions that so trouble you.
What is troubling is when someone in the discussion doesn't know the basic meaning of words.

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Offline CountValentine

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Re: Supreme Court Will Strike Down Roe v Wade
« Reply #1728 on: October 14, 2022, 04:54:05 PM »
Why do you refer to all abortions with one brush? Are you specifically referring to before viability?
Here we go again changing/evolving. That is one way to get out of the hole you dug. Why not just say you made a mistake like other members suggested in other threads and be done with it?
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Offline imayid2

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Re: Supreme Court Will Strike Down Roe v Wade
« Reply #1729 on: October 14, 2022, 04:54:52 PM »
What is troubling is when someone in the discussion doesn't know the basic meaning of words.
If you a making a deal of this, then can you explain why you are asking me why I Iím using the word murder but still conceding itís allowed at times? Donít you know if itís justified it isnít murder?

Offline imayid2

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Re: Supreme Court Will Strike Down Roe v Wade
« Reply #1730 on: October 14, 2022, 04:56:46 PM »
Here we go again changing/evolving. That is one way to get out of the hole you dug. Why not just say you made a mistake like other members suggested in other threads and be done with it?
So when you have no substance you fall back on you favorite clichť. Can you point to where I changed/evolved?

Offline CountValentine

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Re: Supreme Court Will Strike Down Roe v Wade
« Reply #1731 on: October 14, 2022, 04:59:10 PM »
So when you have no substance you fall back on you favorite clichť. Can you point to where I changed/evolved?
You want me to search for every time you said abortion was murder?
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Offline biobook

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Re: Supreme Court Will Strike Down Roe v Wade
« Reply #1732 on: October 14, 2022, 05:00:37 PM »
They can call it what they want, but the women's lawsuit calling for abortion on demand has nothing to do with Judaism.
They were not calling for abortion on demand, but rather IVF on demand.

When Roe was overturned, there was concern about how this might affect IVF, a technique used by couples who can't conceive naturally.  In IVF, a woman's egg and a man's sperm are combined in the lab and the fertilized egg is allowed to develop for 3-5 days, after which it is transferred into the woman's uterus and develops naturally into a fetus.  As this procedure has been refined over the past 30 years, there are at least two stages that raise concerns for IVF doctors and patients.

Rather than removing just one egg from the woman, her body is stimulated to produce 10-20 eggs at one time, which are removed and fertilized in the lab to produce 10-20 embryos.  Usually one embryo is examined and transferred to the woman, but if the examination shows defects, or if the transfer doesn't "take", then another embryo is used for the next attempt. Usually multiple attempts are needed, but there are likely to be some embryos remaining. Even after the baby is born, the couple might choose to store leftover embryos for the chance of another child in a year or two (Storage costs about $1000/ year.)

Then what happens to the remaining embryos?  AFAIK halachic decisions have permitted their passive destruction (that is, they are removed from cold storage and allowed to dehydrate and "die" naturally), since they are in that very early <40 day period, and have no human-like appearance, that is, they look like a ball of cells.

Most other states that created new anti-abortion laws did include a clause to say that the anti-abortion law is not meant to apply to IVF, but the state of Kentucky did not. Their claim that "life begins at fertilization" seems to disallow destruction of those embryos.  Some argue that the technique shouldn't be used at all, or if it is used, the unwanted embryos should be transferred to another woman who wants to become pregnant. 

This is opposed by most rabbis.  Not using the technique means that these couples will not reproduce, and reproduction is desirable under Jewish law.  And transferring their embryos to someone else runs the risk that their child will one day meet someone ("We're so much alike!") and marry them without realizing that they're biological siblings. So in this case, I think it's accurate to say that Jewish law doesn't accept the implications of "life begins at fertilization".

A second stage where there could be conflict occurs when a woman hasn't become pregnant after the first attempts of embryo transfer, and the doctor transfers 2 embryos at one time, in the hope that at least one will implant.  This often works, but in some cases 2 embryos both implant.  While the infertile couple might be delighted to have a large family, experience shows that when this happens, there's a higher chance that the woman will miscarry or deliver prematurely, risking the life of both fetuses.  So it is often recommended that only one fetus be kept alive, and "selective reduction" takes place at around 10-12 weeks after fertilization.

This is closer to abortion, and seems to be disallowed by the state of Kentucky's bill, but AIUI, rabbis do allow this because it significantly increases the chance for a healthy baby. 

There are many women and doctors who have these concerns about the impact that the law will have on IVF, but these women are able to base their argument on religious freedom. 

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Re: Supreme Court Will Strike Down Roe v Wade
« Reply #1733 on: October 14, 2022, 05:01:33 PM »
You want me to search for every time you said abortion was murder?
Not in the context of explaining my religions beliefs or before viability?
Yes.

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Re: Supreme Court Will Strike Down Roe v Wade
« Reply #1734 on: October 14, 2022, 05:04:30 PM »
If you a making a deal of this, then can you explain why you are asking me why I Iím using the word murder but still conceding itís allowed at times?
This is the hole you dug yourself which I tried to point out is indefensible.
You claimed abortion is murder.
You claimed abortion is allowed under certain circumstances.
That means murder is allowed under certain circumstances.
1+1=2
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Re: Supreme Court Will Strike Down Roe v Wade
« Reply #1735 on: October 14, 2022, 05:05:53 PM »
They were not calling for abortion on demand, but rather IVF on demand.

When Roe was overturned, there was concern about how this might affect IVF, a technique used by couples who can't conceive naturally.  In IVF, a woman's egg and a man's sperm are combined in the lab and the fertilized egg is allowed to develop for 3-5 days, after which it is transferred into the woman's uterus and develops naturally into a fetus.  As this procedure has been refined over the past 30 years, there are at least two stages that raise concerns for IVF doctors and patients.

Rather than removing just one egg from the woman, her body is stimulated to produce 10-20 eggs at one time, which are removed and fertilized in the lab to produce 10-20 embryos.  Usually one embryo is examined and transferred to the woman, but if the examination shows defects, or if the transfer doesn't "take", then another embryo is used for the next attempt. Usually multiple attempts are needed, but there are likely to be some embryos remaining. Even after the baby is born, the couple might choose to store leftover embryos for the chance of another child in a year or two (Storage costs about $1000/ year.)

Then what happens to the remaining embryos?  AFAIK halachic decisions have permitted their passive destruction (that is, they are removed from cold storage and allowed to dehydrate and "die" naturally), since they are in that very early <40 day period, and have no human-like appearance, that is, they look like a ball of cells.

Most other states that created new anti-abortion laws did include a clause to say that the anti-abortion law is not meant to apply to IVF, but the state of Kentucky did not. Their claim that "life begins at fertilization" seems to disallow destruction of those embryos.  Some argue that the technique shouldn't be used at all, or if it is used, the unwanted embryos should be transferred to another woman who wants to become pregnant. 

This is opposed by most rabbis.  Not using the technique means that these couples will not reproduce, and reproduction is desirable under Jewish law.  And transferring their embryos to someone else runs the risk that their child will one day meet someone ("We're so much alike!") and marry them without realizing that they're biological siblings. So in this case, I think it's accurate to say that Jewish law doesn't accept the implications of "life begins at fertilization".

A second stage where there could be conflict occurs when a woman hasn't become pregnant after the first attempts of embryo transfer, and the doctor transfers 2 embryos at one time, in the hope that at least one will implant.  This often works, but in some cases 2 embryos both implant.  While the infertile couple might be delighted to have a large family, experience shows that when this happens, there's a higher chance that the woman will miscarry or deliver prematurely, risking the life of both fetuses.  So it is often recommended that only one fetus be kept alive, and "selective reduction" takes place at around 10-12 weeks after fertilization.

This is closer to abortion, and seems to be disallowed by the state of Kentucky's bill, but AIUI, rabbis do allow this because it significantly increases the chance for a healthy baby. 

There are many women and doctors who have these concerns about the impact that the law will have on IVF, but these women are able to base their argument on religious freedom.
I did see that the focus was their case of IVF, but they seem to make claims that Judaism allows on demand according to the article.
Feelings don't care about your facts

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Re: Supreme Court Will Strike Down Roe v Wade
« Reply #1736 on: October 14, 2022, 05:06:16 PM »
This is the hole you dug yourself which I tried to point out is indefensible.
You claimed abortion is murder.
You claimed abortion is allowed under certain circumstances.
That means murder is allowed under certain circumstances.
1+1=2
Which is an oxymoron
Feelings don't care about your facts

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Re: Supreme Court Will Strike Down Roe v Wade
« Reply #1737 on: October 14, 2022, 05:06:25 PM »
This is the hole you dug yourself which I tried to point out is indefensible.
You claimed abortion is murder.
You claimed abortion is allowed under certain circumstances.
That means murder is allowed under certain circumstances.
1+1=2
Donít you understand words? Sheesh. No it means killing is allowed under certain circumstances.

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Re: Supreme Court Will Strike Down Roe v Wade
« Reply #1738 on: October 14, 2022, 05:06:47 PM »
Not in the context of explaining my religions beliefs or before viability?
Yes.
Wait a minute. Am I understanding this right.
You view is if a fetus aborted before viability, it is not murder?
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Re: Supreme Court Will Strike Down Roe v Wade
« Reply #1739 on: October 14, 2022, 05:08:14 PM »
Wait a minute. Am I understanding this right.
You view is if a fetus aborted before viability, it is not murder?
I told you so many times. From a purely rationalistic view I take no position on that. From my religions view it is a form of murder.