Parental support

[drosenberg88429]

It actually makes some sense if a girl is looking for a serious committed learner. A bochur who is making income working on the side might just be be responsible and a serious learner or he may be motivated by an itch to work or inability to sit and learn long hours. There certainly are plenty of the latter. It’s hard to know. She would rather look first at a conventional bochur rather that vet the more complex suggestion.

I'm not saying they're wrong. (Would be a much more nuanced response for that - would really depend where the girl is holding in life and how much she's actually machshiv torah vs just wanting the brand name without being willing to make any of the sacrifices, but that's neither here nor there.) I'm just saying that all this talk about mandatory support being unreasonable and greedy can't be pinned purely on opportunistic boys taking advantage of the fact that they supposedly have the upper hand in this market. Many of the girls are demanding a specific profile, and the need for support in order to fit that profile neatly is coming from the girls end.


In my opinion, if the support model was put into cherem, it wouldn't destroy the kollel system. All it would do would be to force women that want a learning guy to put their effort where their mouth is, and ensure that they have an income which can support that. For a large segment, that would mean delaying shidduchim until 21-22 when they are finished their degrees, which would organically close the age gap which has been blamed for a big part of the availability discrepancy between girls looking for a certain profile and boys of that profile available. It would also give girls a chance to come off seminary clouds a bit before starting shidduchim, and would elimination the standardization of starting age, allow them to start dating at a stage when they feel ready to get married as opposed to feeling pressured to begin at 19 because that's what everyone does.

However, rabbanim would never go for such a concept.

[jye]

You would probably end up with considerably less girls having husbands in kollel. A 23 year old single girl spending several years in the workplace with a professional degree living comfortably on a decent income with have a harder time committing to the kollel lifestyle.

[drosenberg88429]

You would probably end up with considerably less girls having husbands in kollel. A 23 year old single girl spending several years in the workplace with a professional degree living comfortably on a decent income with have a harder time committing to the kollel lifestyle.

Issue isn't really committing to kollel lifestyle (which has been exhaustively discussed on this thread to be a misnomer) as much as having a difficult time properly respecting a yeshiva bochur who may be significantly less sophisticated and worldly than her at that stage in life. Remaining inspired on the same degree as she was coming back from seminary is not so simple. She may feel like she's more advanced than him, if the chashivus hatorah isn't really instilled in her and she doesn't respect Torah learning access culture as equal or greater than her professional accomplishments and credentials.

This will also organically make headway on evening out the amount of girls looking for full time learners and amount of full time learners available. While this may alleviate the "shidduch crisis" to a degree, it is also why no Rosh Yeshiva would endorse such a thing.

[yerushabubby]

We recently married off a son (not the first).

We commit to splitting first year's rent, as well as basic furniture and appliances - regardless of whether the husband is working or learning the first year.  This is the standard in most Yerushalayim chasidius these days. 

Helping towards a down payment is between each side and the young couple - the commitment is only to help as much as possible, not a specific amount. 

 

[Yehuda57]

Not to ruin the conversation, but every time I see this thread I read it as prenatal support.

As you were

[aygart]

Not to ruin the conversation, but every time I see this thread I read it as prenatal support.

As you were

Same thing?

[David61]

After salary and kollel check?

I understand starting salaries for non-college-graduate-women are above $40,000/year in Lakewood, BMG is now paying kollel checks of $1000/month, and young-adults able to remain covered under their parents health-insurance plans till 26.

If so, unless the wife is in college, is ongoing parental support even needed the first 3 years of kollel?

[smart man]

I understand starting salaries for non-college-graduate-women are above $40,000/year in Lakewood, BMG is now paying kollel checks of $1000/month, and young-adults able to remain covered under their parents health-insurance plans till 26.

If so, unless the wife is in college, is ongoing parental support even needed the first 3 years of kollel?

Yes it is needed (unless you live extremely frugally). Also BMG does not give anything the first 3 years in yeshiva.

[jye]

I understand starting salaries for non-college-graduate-women are above $40,000/year in Lakewood, BMG is now paying kollel checks of $1000/month, and young-adults able to remain covered under their parents health-insurance plans till 26.

If so, unless the wife is in college, is ongoing parental support even needed the first 3 years of kollel?

I doubt starting salary for no experience is over 40k off the bat. Rent can approach 20k for a basement apartment and AFAIK a parents insurance plan won’t cover maternity or the grandchild. Add in car and daycare expenses and the post tax income doesn’t go all that far.

[avromie7]

I doubt starting salary for no experience is over 40k off the bat.

Girls straight out of seminary are getting in the low $20s/hour. It may depend what type of job/career she's looking for, for example a teacher makes less.

[jye]

Girls straight out of seminary are getting in the low $20s/hour. It may depend what type of job/career she's looking for, for example a teacher makes less.

Don’t count on that job even existing a year from now if it’s in mortgage/ real estate perhaps even title and other industries….

[Euclid]

Don’t count on that job even existing a year from now if it’s in mortgage/ real estate perhaps even title and other industries….

Most office jobs in Lkwd are back-office healthcare

[jye]

Most office jobs in Lkwd are back-office healthcare

Probably more insulated from recession but how much of their frothy growth is being fueled by venture capital and easy access to borrowing at low rates?

Additionally, even a small influx of workers from the mortgage related industries can significantly alter the supply demand dynamic in the rest of the job market. Go from a 5-10% defecit of workers to a surplus and see what that does to starting salaries.

[jye]

https://mishpacha.com/everywhere-and-nowhere/
אין כל חדש תחת השמש
“In 1895, an editorial in the Orthodox family weekly Die Laubhütte stated: “Dowries are getting higher every year…. Soon middle-class girls will no longer be able to buy men and poor girls already have no chance to get married.”

A generation later, there was no substantial improvement: A letter to the editor of the most widely read German-Jewish newspaper bemoaned “the tendency among us Jews to put the dowry in first place in the choice of a wife.” Girls who had no dowries — like Hannah and Becca — would usually be consigned to spinsterhood”

[yuneeq]

Not to ruin the conversation, but every time I see this thread I read it as prenatal support.

As you were

Funny you posted it, I was thinking the same thing

https://forums.dansdeals.com/index.php?topic=124240.msg2588527#msg2588527

[yelped]

כי הממון שאדם לוקח עם אשתו אינו ממון של יושר, וכל העושה כן מקרי נושא אשה לשם ממון, אלא כל מה שיתן לו חמיו וחמותו יקח בעין טוב ואז יצליחו

רמ"א

(Yes I know I only quoted part of it.)

ETA: So that this shouldn't be taken out of context, the Rema is referring to arguing over promised dowry amounts. But, we do see from here, that even if it is promised, it is not considered Yoisher to expect it and demand it. Especially when parents are "forced" to give it, be it from "the system" or otherwise. Rather, the couple should be grateful when parents chip in, be it some money towards a down payment down the line or some other thing as the parents see fit and can afford.

It is close to an ultimate disrespect to a parent to demand money and exposes the true character of a person.

[ExGingi]

כי הממון שאדם לוקח עם אשתו אינו ממון של יושר, וכל העושה כן מקרי נושא אשה לשם ממון, אלא כל מה שיתן לו חמיו וחמותו יקח בעין טוב ואז יצליחו

רמ"א

(Yes I know I only quoted part of it.)

ETA: So that this shouldn't be taken out of context, the Rema is referring to arguing over promised dowry amounts. But, we do see from here, that even if it is promised, it is not considered Yoisher to expect it and demand it. Especially when parents are "forced" to give it, be it from "the system" or otherwise. Rather, the couple should be grateful when parents chip in, be it some money towards a down payment down the line or some other thing as the parents see fit and can afford.

It is close to an ultimate disrespect to a parent to demand money and exposes the true character of a person.

I just heard an interesting story over Shabbos about someone's mother, who ended up marrying his father despite coming from a poor family that wasn't able to provide any dowry. They compromised on a divorcee. That divorcee had divorced his first wife that came from a wealthy family, after his father-in-law stopped supporting him after 1 year rather than a longer period (or in perpetuity?) as promised. This occurred in pre WWII Europe.

[YesThatsMe]

I just heard an interesting story over Shabbos about someone's mother, who ended up marrying his father despite coming from a poor family that wasn't able to provide any dowry. They compromised on a divorcee. That divorcee had divorced his first wife that came from a wealthy family, after his father-in-law stopped supporting him after 1 year rather than a longer period (or in perpetuity?) as promised. This occurred in pre WWII Europe.

You do understand dowries back then were about food on the table, not about whose turn is it for parents to take the couple to Pesach program or send a $2,000 carriage to Romema/Ramat Eshkol?

[YitzyS]

three/day, must confirm kashrus as no symbol is present


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[ExGingi]

You do understand dowries back then were about food on the table, not about whose turn is it for parents to take the couple to Pesach program or send a $2,000 carriage to Romema/Ramat Eshkol?

Not disagreeing, but the way I heard the story told, it was about a wealthy father-in-law for the זיווג ראשון.