Author Topic: Flying Over The Dateline During Sefiras Ha'Omer  (Read 8363 times)

Offline Something Fishy

  • Global Moderator
  • Dansdeals Lifetime Presidential Platinum Elite
  • **********
  • Join Date: Jan 2011
  • Posts: 8707
  • Total likes: 6069
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 44
    • View Profile
    • Kosher Horizons
  • Location: Iceland
Re: Flying Over The Dateline During Sefiras Ha'Omer
« Reply #20 on: May 27, 2022, 09:42:12 AM »
Will update with what my LOR says.

- Count 41 (last night) without a bracha (be yotzei from someone else)
- Continue counting as normal afterwards

Had I actually counted 41 on the plane it would have been more difficult, but since I didn't it's a sfek sefeika and the solution is pretty straightforward.
Check out my site for epic kosher adventures: Kosher Horizons

Offline Dan

  • Administrator
  • Dansdeals Lifetime 50K Diamond Elite
  • **********
  • Join Date: May 2008
  • Posts: 67598
  • Total likes: 16909
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 16442
  • Gender: Male
    • View Profile
  • Location: CLE
  • Programs: UA GS, AA EXP, DL Dirt, Hyatt Glob, Fairmont Lifetime Plat, DD Diamond, Blocked By @NeriaKraus
Re: Flying Over The Dateline During Sefiras Ha'Omer
« Reply #21 on: May 27, 2022, 09:47:50 AM »
- Count 41 (last night) without a bracha (be yotzei from someone else)
- Continue counting as normal afterwards

Had I actually counted 41 on the plane it would have been more difficult, but since I didn't it's a sfek sefeika and the solution is pretty straightforward.
What's the sfek sfeika if there was sunset and sunrise on the plane?
Save your time, I don't answer PM. Post it in the forum and a dedicated DDF'er will get back to you as soon as possible.

Offline Something Fishy

  • Global Moderator
  • Dansdeals Lifetime Presidential Platinum Elite
  • **********
  • Join Date: Jan 2011
  • Posts: 8707
  • Total likes: 6069
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 44
    • View Profile
    • Kosher Horizons
  • Location: Iceland
Re: Flying Over The Dateline During Sefiras Ha'Omer
« Reply #22 on: May 27, 2022, 09:56:49 AM »
What's the sfek sfeika if there was sunset and sunrise on the plane?

If flying through a short night is actually mechayev you to count sefira in the first place
Check out my site for epic kosher adventures: Kosher Horizons

Offline Dan

  • Administrator
  • Dansdeals Lifetime 50K Diamond Elite
  • **********
  • Join Date: May 2008
  • Posts: 67598
  • Total likes: 16909
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 16442
  • Gender: Male
    • View Profile
  • Location: CLE
  • Programs: UA GS, AA EXP, DL Dirt, Hyatt Glob, Fairmont Lifetime Plat, DD Diamond, Blocked By @NeriaKraus
Re: Flying Over The Dateline During Sefiras Ha'Omer
« Reply #23 on: May 29, 2022, 02:11:33 PM »
If flying through a short night is actually mechayev you to count sefira in the first place
@dirah Is this also a difference in opinion between Chabad and non-Chabad poskim?
Save your time, I don't answer PM. Post it in the forum and a dedicated DDF'er will get back to you as soon as possible.

Offline chff

  • Dansdeals Lifetime Presidential Platinum Elite
  • *********
  • Join Date: Jul 2012
  • Posts: 5895
  • Total likes: 686
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 25
    • View Profile
  • Location: NYC (not anymore)
  • Programs: All of them...
Re: Flying Over The Dateline During Sefiras Ha'Omer
« Reply #24 on: May 29, 2022, 02:37:44 PM »
MyZmanim looking much more accurate than ChaiTables these days:

https://i.dansdeals.com/wp-content/uploads/2022/05/27093306/2022-05-29_1100_HND-JFK-E_Mobile.pdf
Chai tables is great circle, Myzmanim uses past few flight routes

Offline dirah

  • Dansdeals Lifetime Platinum Elite
  • *******
  • Join Date: Jan 2010
  • Posts: 1277
  • Total likes: 28
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 0
    • View Profile
Re: Flying Over The Dateline During Sefiras Ha'Omer
« Reply #25 on: May 29, 2022, 06:57:33 PM »
@dirah Is this also a difference in opinion between Chabad and non-Chabad poskim?
I know there is debate whether Sefirah is personal or universal.
I don’t see why length of night should matter.
[Put differently, imagine you took the same kind of flight but in the Southern Hemisphere (e.g. Sydney to Santiago), so the night would be long due to Southern Hemispherical winter – should that be a reason to change the Psak?]

Offline Dan

  • Administrator
  • Dansdeals Lifetime 50K Diamond Elite
  • **********
  • Join Date: May 2008
  • Posts: 67598
  • Total likes: 16909
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 16442
  • Gender: Male
    • View Profile
  • Location: CLE
  • Programs: UA GS, AA EXP, DL Dirt, Hyatt Glob, Fairmont Lifetime Plat, DD Diamond, Blocked By @NeriaKraus
Re: Flying Over The Dateline During Sefiras Ha'Omer
« Reply #26 on: May 29, 2022, 07:04:05 PM »
I know there is debate whether Sefirah is personal or universal.
I don’t see why length of night should matter.
[Put differently, imagine you took the same kind of flight but in the Southern Hemisphere (e.g. Sydney to Santiago), so the night would be long due to Southern Hemispherical winter – should that be a reason to change the Psak?]
Makes sense to me, just trying to understand how this p'sak has any halachic basis as I've never heard of anything like it before.
Save your time, I don't answer PM. Post it in the forum and a dedicated DDF'er will get back to you as soon as possible.

Offline gozalim

  • Dansdeals Presidential Platinum Elite
  • ********
  • Join Date: Oct 2008
  • Posts: 4255
  • Total likes: 812
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 0
  • Gender: Male
    • View Profile
Re: Flying Over The Dateline During Sefiras Ha'Omer
« Reply #27 on: May 29, 2022, 11:43:15 PM »
I know there is debate whether Sefirah is personal or universal.
I don’t see why length of night should matter.
[Put differently, imagine you took the same kind of flight but in the Southern Hemisphere (e.g. Sydney to Santiago), so the night would be long due to Southern Hemispherical winter – should that be a reason to change the Psak?]

what if it was so short as to have just shkia but no tzeis

Offline dirah

  • Dansdeals Lifetime Platinum Elite
  • *******
  • Join Date: Jan 2010
  • Posts: 1277
  • Total likes: 28
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 0
    • View Profile
Re: Flying Over The Dateline During Sefiras Ha'Omer
« Reply #28 on: May 30, 2022, 01:22:47 AM »
what if it was so short as to have just shkia but no tzeis
Well, then it would be a questionable night, not a short night.

Interestingly, the most Northerly coordinates of the flight, as available here:
https://flightaware.com/live/flight/JAL6/history/20220526/0210Z/RJTT/KJFK/tracklog
We have:
64.9711
-141.6779

At that latitude, on this date, there is sunset but there seems to be no Tzeis.

Sunset for that location:
https://aa.usno.navy.mil/calculated/rstt/year?ID=AA&year=2022&task=0&lat=64.9711&lon=-141.6779&label=&tz=0&tz_sign=-1&submit=Get+Data

Civil twilight for that location (around 6 degrees, which roughly coincides with Tzeis of Siddur Harav):
https://aa.usno.navy.mil/calculated/rstt/year?ID=AA&year=2022&task=2&lat=64.9711&lon=-141.6779&label=&tz=0&tz_sign=-1&submit=Get+Data

Astronomical twilight for that location (around 18 degrees, which is a little after Tzeis of Rabbenu Tam according to degrees (which not too many people do, but rather, they go with fixed minutes):
https://aa.usno.navy.mil/calculated/rstt/year?ID=AA&year=2022&task=4&lat=64.9711&lon=-141.6779&label=&tz=0&tz_sign=-1&submit=Get+Data

[On this date and location, Chabad.org is just calculating Tzeis at astronomical midnight :
https://www.chabad.org/calendar/zmanim_cdo/additional/true/coords/64.9711%2C-141.6779/locationtype/3/n/SomethingFishy/save/1/tdate/5-26-2022/tzname/America*Anchorage/jewish/Halachic-Times.htm ]

All of that raises the question of how to determine night in Polar regions.

In any case, I am guessing (yes, just guessing) that it is somewhat irrelevant here, because it is very likely that there was a definite Tzeis when the plane was a little more South, either before or after this point.

Offline Dan

  • Administrator
  • Dansdeals Lifetime 50K Diamond Elite
  • **********
  • Join Date: May 2008
  • Posts: 67598
  • Total likes: 16909
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 16442
  • Gender: Male
    • View Profile
  • Location: CLE
  • Programs: UA GS, AA EXP, DL Dirt, Hyatt Glob, Fairmont Lifetime Plat, DD Diamond, Blocked By @NeriaKraus
Re: Flying Over The Dateline During Sefiras Ha'Omer
« Reply #29 on: May 30, 2022, 09:30:59 AM »
Well, then it would be a questionable night, not a short night.

Interestingly, the most Northerly coordinates of the flight, as available here:
https://flightaware.com/live/flight/JAL6/history/20220526/0210Z/RJTT/KJFK/tracklog
We have:
64.9711
-141.6779

At that latitude, on this date, there is sunset but there seems to be no Tzeis.

Sunset for that location:
https://aa.usno.navy.mil/calculated/rstt/year?ID=AA&year=2022&task=0&lat=64.9711&lon=-141.6779&label=&tz=0&tz_sign=-1&submit=Get+Data

Civil twilight for that location (around 6 degrees, which roughly coincides with Tzeis of Siddur Harav):
https://aa.usno.navy.mil/calculated/rstt/year?ID=AA&year=2022&task=2&lat=64.9711&lon=-141.6779&label=&tz=0&tz_sign=-1&submit=Get+Data

Astronomical twilight for that location (around 18 degrees, which is a little after Tzeis of Rabbenu Tam according to degrees (which not too many people do, but rather, they go with fixed minutes):
https://aa.usno.navy.mil/calculated/rstt/year?ID=AA&year=2022&task=4&lat=64.9711&lon=-141.6779&label=&tz=0&tz_sign=-1&submit=Get+Data

[On this date and location, Chabad.org is just calculating Tzeis at astronomical midnight :
https://www.chabad.org/calendar/zmanim_cdo/additional/true/coords/64.9711%2C-141.6779/locationtype/3/n/SomethingFishy/save/1/tdate/5-26-2022/tzname/America*Anchorage/jewish/Halachic-Times.htm ]

All of that raises the question of how to determine night in Polar regions.

In any case, I am guessing (yes, just guessing) that it is somewhat irrelevant here, because it is very likely that there was a definite Tzeis when the plane was a little more South, either before or after this point.

1. This is amazing.
2. MyZmanim calculated that with a departure time of 11-1110am Japan time, tzeis would come at 3:46pm Japan time, which is 2:46am EDT.
Based on the flightaware coordinates for that time, you'd be at 56.0653   -178.7757.

Seems like that generates a true Tzeis, right?
https://www.chabad.org/calendar/zmanim_cdo/additional/true/bdef/0/before/18/coords/56.0653%2C-178.7757/locationtype/3/n/SomethingFishy2/save/1/tdate/5-26-2022/tzname/America*Anchorage/jewish/Halachic-Times.htm

3. How relevant is Tzeis here? In other words, if this route flew polar (which it can't now) and there was no tzeis, would that be a sfek sfeika to not count an extra day of sefira as you cross the dateline?
« Last Edit: May 30, 2022, 09:36:04 AM by Dan »
Save your time, I don't answer PM. Post it in the forum and a dedicated DDF'er will get back to you as soon as possible.

Offline Something Fishy

  • Global Moderator
  • Dansdeals Lifetime Presidential Platinum Elite
  • **********
  • Join Date: Jan 2011
  • Posts: 8707
  • Total likes: 6069
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 44
    • View Profile
    • Kosher Horizons
  • Location: Iceland
Re: Flying Over The Dateline During Sefiras Ha'Omer
« Reply #30 on: May 30, 2022, 09:54:39 AM »
I just want to clarify that I don't know the exact basis of the psak I got. One of the reason I love my LOR is that if he doesn't know something, he either sends me to an expert or calls one himself. In this case he told me outright that he isn't familiar enough with the subject to pasken, so he'll ask someone who is and let me know.

He called me back an hour later and gave me the psak. He mentioned sfek sfeika and that the halacha might be different had I actually counted on the plane. He also said that the fact that I flew through it quickly as opposed to having actually spent time in a questionable location mattered as well. I didn't follow up on those points.
Check out my site for epic kosher adventures: Kosher Horizons

Offline Something Fishy

  • Global Moderator
  • Dansdeals Lifetime Presidential Platinum Elite
  • **********
  • Join Date: Jan 2011
  • Posts: 8707
  • Total likes: 6069
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 44
    • View Profile
    • Kosher Horizons
  • Location: Iceland
Re: Flying Over The Dateline During Sefiras Ha'Omer
« Reply #31 on: May 30, 2022, 09:55:32 AM »
He also said that had we indeed followed the Chabad minhag I'd most likely have to hold shavous earlier, as mentioned here a number of times.
Check out my site for epic kosher adventures: Kosher Horizons

Offline Dan

  • Administrator
  • Dansdeals Lifetime 50K Diamond Elite
  • **********
  • Join Date: May 2008
  • Posts: 67598
  • Total likes: 16909
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 16442
  • Gender: Male
    • View Profile
  • Location: CLE
  • Programs: UA GS, AA EXP, DL Dirt, Hyatt Glob, Fairmont Lifetime Plat, DD Diamond, Blocked By @NeriaKraus
Re: Flying Over The Dateline During Sefiras Ha'Omer
« Reply #32 on: May 30, 2022, 09:59:00 AM »
He also said that had we indeed followed the Chabad minhag I'd most likely have to hold shavous earlier, as mentioned here a number of times.
ממה נפשך?
If the night counts, then your sefira count would be off and some would say (including Chabad) that your Shavuos would be earlier. (Though a Chabad rov would also say not to take such a flight lechatchila.)
If the night doesn't count, then Shavuos wouldn't be affected.

I'm not aware of any reason why the night would only be counted according to Chabad, but I'd love to know if I'm missing something. Can we get Rabbi Heber and @dirah to post here ;D
Save your time, I don't answer PM. Post it in the forum and a dedicated DDF'er will get back to you as soon as possible.

Offline Something Fishy

  • Global Moderator
  • Dansdeals Lifetime Presidential Platinum Elite
  • **********
  • Join Date: Jan 2011
  • Posts: 8707
  • Total likes: 6069
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 44
    • View Profile
    • Kosher Horizons
  • Location: Iceland
Re: Flying Over The Dateline During Sefiras Ha'Omer
« Reply #33 on: May 30, 2022, 10:01:42 AM »
ממה נפשך?
If the night counts, then your sefira count would be off and some would say (including Chabad) that your Shavuos would be earlier. (Though a Chabad rov would also say not to take such a flight lechatchila.)
If the night doesn't count, then Shavuos wouldn't be affected.

I'm not aware of any reason why the night would only be counted according to Chabad, but I'd love to know if I'm missing something.

Good question, I don't know. Could be something to this effect, in relation to sefira and/or Shavous:

I know there is debate whether Sefirah is personal or universal.
Check out my site for epic kosher adventures: Kosher Horizons

Offline Dan

  • Administrator
  • Dansdeals Lifetime 50K Diamond Elite
  • **********
  • Join Date: May 2008
  • Posts: 67598
  • Total likes: 16909
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 16442
  • Gender: Male
    • View Profile
  • Location: CLE
  • Programs: UA GS, AA EXP, DL Dirt, Hyatt Glob, Fairmont Lifetime Plat, DD Diamond, Blocked By @NeriaKraus
Re: Flying Over The Dateline During Sefiras Ha'Omer
« Reply #34 on: May 30, 2022, 10:02:46 AM »
Out of curiosity, did you daven mincha/mariv/shachris again? Were you supposed to according this this psak?
I wonder how that affects sefira as well if you did or didn't daven for your bonus day?

In other words, if there's a psak that just passing through an area quickly doesn't affect sefira, why does it affect any tefilos? Or perhaps there are shitas that it doesn't? Though I'd imagine myzmanim would have pointed that out if that were the case?
Save your time, I don't answer PM. Post it in the forum and a dedicated DDF'er will get back to you as soon as possible.

Offline Something Fishy

  • Global Moderator
  • Dansdeals Lifetime Presidential Platinum Elite
  • **********
  • Join Date: Jan 2011
  • Posts: 8707
  • Total likes: 6069
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 44
    • View Profile
    • Kosher Horizons
  • Location: Iceland
Re: Flying Over The Dateline During Sefiras Ha'Omer
« Reply #35 on: May 30, 2022, 10:06:37 AM »
Out of curiosity, did you daven mincha/mariv/shachris again? Were you supposed to according this this psak?
I wonder how that affects sefira as well if you did or didn't daven for your bonus day?

In other words, if there's a psak that just passing through an area quickly doesn't affect sefira, why does it affect any tefilos? Or perhaps there are shitas that it doesn't? Though I'd imagine myzmanim would have pointed that out if that were the case?

In all honesty I slept through the entire thing and didn't realize I had davening shailos until maariv that night 🙈.
Check out my site for epic kosher adventures: Kosher Horizons

Offline Something Fishy

  • Global Moderator
  • Dansdeals Lifetime Presidential Platinum Elite
  • **********
  • Join Date: Jan 2011
  • Posts: 8707
  • Total likes: 6069
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 44
    • View Profile
    • Kosher Horizons
  • Location: Iceland
Re: Flying Over The Dateline During Sefiras Ha'Omer
« Reply #36 on: May 30, 2022, 10:07:15 AM »
I shattered all my previous sleeping on planes records lol. JAL F is really quite something ;D.
Check out my site for epic kosher adventures: Kosher Horizons

Offline Dan

  • Administrator
  • Dansdeals Lifetime 50K Diamond Elite
  • **********
  • Join Date: May 2008
  • Posts: 67598
  • Total likes: 16909
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 16442
  • Gender: Male
    • View Profile
  • Location: CLE
  • Programs: UA GS, AA EXP, DL Dirt, Hyatt Glob, Fairmont Lifetime Plat, DD Diamond, Blocked By @NeriaKraus
Re: Flying Over The Dateline During Sefiras Ha'Omer
« Reply #37 on: May 30, 2022, 10:08:23 AM »
In all honesty I slept through the entire thing and didn't realize I had davening shailos until maariv that night 🙈.
And looking at ChaiTables, I'd probably have done the same.
But MyZmanim was clearly more accurate here as it looks at recent routings as opposed to the great circle routings.

But still, I'd love to understand why/if these zmanim affect tefilos and not sefira.
Save your time, I don't answer PM. Post it in the forum and a dedicated DDF'er will get back to you as soon as possible.

Offline Dan

  • Administrator
  • Dansdeals Lifetime 50K Diamond Elite
  • **********
  • Join Date: May 2008
  • Posts: 67598
  • Total likes: 16909
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 16442
  • Gender: Male
    • View Profile
  • Location: CLE
  • Programs: UA GS, AA EXP, DL Dirt, Hyatt Glob, Fairmont Lifetime Plat, DD Diamond, Blocked By @NeriaKraus
Re: Flying Over The Dateline During Sefiras Ha'Omer
« Reply #38 on: May 30, 2022, 10:09:02 AM »
I shattered all my previous sleeping on planes records lol. JAL F is really quite something ;D.
JL F is great for sleeping, but have you never flown CX F?
That's the top for sleeping IMHO.
Save your time, I don't answer PM. Post it in the forum and a dedicated DDF'er will get back to you as soon as possible.

Offline Something Fishy

  • Global Moderator
  • Dansdeals Lifetime Presidential Platinum Elite
  • **********
  • Join Date: Jan 2011
  • Posts: 8707
  • Total likes: 6069
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 44
    • View Profile
    • Kosher Horizons
  • Location: Iceland
Re: Flying Over The Dateline During Sefiras Ha'Omer
« Reply #39 on: May 30, 2022, 10:13:20 AM »
JL F is great for sleeping, but have you never flown CX F?
That's the top for sleeping IMHO.

No, just J. Not bad, but nothing spectacular.
Check out my site for epic kosher adventures: Kosher Horizons