Israeli Army Problems

[ExGingi]

Yes even Aliya and even just one parent.

https://embassies.gov.il/new-york/ConsularServices/Pages/Registration-of-Israeli-Citizens-Abroad.aspx

אזרחות מכוח לידה - תיקון מס' 4 לחוק (תש"ם-1980):
בשינוי לנוסח המקורי של סעיף (4) לעיל, מתייחס התיקון גם למקום הלידה של הילד.
משנת 1980 - לילד שנולד בחו"ל מוקנית האזרחות מכוח לידה, רק אם הוא דור ראשון לאדם שרכש את האזרחות מכוח שבות, ישיבה, התאזרחות או לידה בישראל.
 
להלן נוסח סעיף 4(א) לחוק המתוקן:
"אלה יהיו, מיום לידתם, אזרחים ישראליים מכוח לידה:-
(1) מי שנולד בישראל כשאביו או אמו היו אזרחים ישראליים;
(2) מי שנולד מחוץ לישראל כשאביו או אמו היו אזרחים ישראלים:
 
(א) מכוח שבות
(ב) מכוח ישיבה
(ג) מכוח התאזרחות
(ד) מכוח לידה בישראל
לעניין סעיף זה - מי שנולד אחרי מות אחד מהוריו - דיו שאותו הורה היה במותו אזרח ישראלי".

מכאן שאזרחות מכוח לידה מוקנית:
(א) לילד שנולד בישראל להורה שהוא אזרח ישראלי (מי שנולד בישראל להורה יהודי שאיננו אזרח ישראלי אבל הינו תושב הארץ ורשום במרשם האוכלוסין – מוקנית לו האזרחות הישראלית מכוח שבות (ולא מכוח לידה);
(ב) לילד שנולד בחו"ל לפני 18.11.1980 להורה שהוא אזרח ישראלי;
(ג) לילד שנולד בחו"ל אחרי 17.11.1980 להורה שהוא אזרח ישראלי, בתנאי שאותו הורה קיבל אזרחותו הישראלית מכוח שבות, ישיבה, התאזרחות או לידה בישראל

מהנאמר לעיל נובע גם כי ילד שנולד בחו"ל אחרי 17.11.1980 להורה שקיבל אזרחותו הישראלית מכוח לידה בחו"ל - לא מוקנית לו האזרחות הישראלית (משום שהוא דור שני שנולד בחו"ל לאזרח ישראלי שעזב את הארץ). במקרה כזה, חובה לבדוק זכאות לאזרחות של ההורה האחר, לפני הקביעה כי הילוד לא רכש אזרחות עם לידתו.

יודגש, שמי שנולד בישראל להורה יהודי שאיננו אזרח ישראלי אך הוא תושב הארץ ורשום במרשם האוכלוסין - מוקנית לו האזרחות הישראלית מכוח שבות ולא מכוח לידה. 

[gozalim]

If they make you register your kids that's a bit יצא שכרו בהפסדו

[ExGingi]

If they make you register your kids that's a bit יצא שכרו בהפסדו

You register them and then renounce for everyone. Need to pay about $100 each for the renouncement.

[yesitsme]

can you say you dont have kids?

[ExGingi]

can you say you dont have kids?

I guess you could. The question is what happens if said kids later try to apply for a student visa. I don't know the answer. I toyed with the idea of omitting some, but decided that it's worth paying a little more for the peace of mind of knowing it was done in accordance with the rules.

[CLEboy]

I guess you could. The question is what happens if said kids later try to apply for a student visa. I don't know the answer. I toyed with the idea of omitting some, but decided that it's worth paying a little more for the peace of mind of knowing it was done in accordance with the rules.

That’s what I was thinking too. How would they ever trace it? Who would know the ins and outs of this? Chaim V’chesed doesn’t.

[yesitsme]

I guess you could. The question is what happens if said kids later try to apply for a student visa. I don't know the answer. I toyed with the idea of omitting some, but decided that it's worth paying a little more for the peace of mind of knowing it was done in accordance with the rules.

you are Mafkir them al mnas liknois

[Realshlomo]

That’s what I was thinking too. How would they ever trace it? Who would know the ins and outs of this? Chaim V’chesed doesn’t.

When applying for a visa they ask for parents names and dates of birth.

There were those friends of mine (Israeli parents) that managed to get a visa by giving fake info.
 
If there is even a Hava Mina that you might be israeli, unclear how they choose who they suspect to get the student visa you need to send in birth certificates of both parents.

Maybe even more than that but that's the info I know.

[ExGingi]

That’s what I was thinking too. How would they ever trace it? Who would know the ins and outs of this? Chaim V’chesed doesn’t.

I don't think it's possible to get an authoritative answer to a question about circumventing the law. My guess is that with girls the risk is lower, since in the worst case, if traced, there's no difficulty to avoid the army, and they should be able to renounce on their own once they reach majority. When it comes to boys my thinking is that it might be better to go through the hoops, that way you know that it won't come back to haunt them at an unexpected time.

Obviously the best time to do it is as soon as possible, so that children born are born after renouncement.

[ExGingi]

When applying for a visa they ask for parents names and dates of birth.

There were those friends of mine (Israeli parents) that managed to get a visa by giving fake info.
 
If there is even a Hava Mina that you might be israeli, unclear how they choose who they suspect to get the student visa you need to send in birth certificates of both parents.

Maybe even more than that but that's the info I know.

My daughter needing a visa now was the catalyst for me to get off my proverbial rear end and finally jump through the hoops to get it done.

[CLEboy]

I don't think it's possible to get an authoritative answer to a question about circumventing the law. My guess is that with girls the risk is lower, since in the worst case, if traced, there's no difficulty to avoid the army, and they should be able to renounce on their own once they reach majority. When it comes to boys my thinking is that it might be better to go through the hoops, that way you know that it won't come back to haunt them at an unexpected time.

Obviously the best time to do it is as soon as possible, so that children born are born after renouncement.

I hear you but my children are already born and I want to go with my 10 yo son after Sukkos. So either way there’s a headache - either now with renouncing citizenship, or later if my son ever goes to EY for Yeshiva, he’ll have to go through the פטור process. Honestly, which is more of a headache?

[ExGingi]

I hear you but my children are already born and I want to go with my 10 yo son after Sukkos. So either way there’s a headache - either now with renouncing citizenship, or later if my son ever goes to EY for Yeshiva, he’ll have to go through the פטור process. Honestly, which is more of a headache?

With kids under the age of 16 there's no issue. Once kids are age 16 and 4 months they need to be exempted from military draft (which isn't too hard if they don't live in Israel) before being able to renounce.

I know the feeling. I took the steps two decades or more after I should have. There are some major PITA on the way, but there's light at the end of the tunnel. I know a few people that have reached the end and live with that light.

[ExGingi]

I hear you but my children are already born and I want to go with my 10 yo son after Sukkos. So either way there’s a headache - either now with renouncing citizenship, or later if my son ever goes to EY for Yeshiva, he’ll have to go through the פטור process. Honestly, which is more of a headache?

The biggest headache is to have issues like my SIL had. His mother was born in Israel. At a certain point when he was a child the family got stopped at the airport leaving the country and were forced to get Israeli passports for the kids. Then when he was in Yeshiva in EY he had problems due to staying there for more than one year. Everything was eventually sorted out, but when he married my daughter she encouraged him to renounce it, which he did (even though based on current Israeli law his children would not be Israeli even if he didn't renounce).

[CLEboy]

Right, I know there’s no issue now, other than putting my son on their map. Whereas if he would not go now they simply won’t know about him. Yet at the same time even if he never goes with me and it comes time to go to Yeshiva there and has to get a student visa, there’s a very good chance they will suspect him of being Israeli (because I am, and I have traveled to EY multiple times) and he’ll have to get a פטור anyways. So why not just go now with him?

[ExGingi]

Right, I know there’s no issue now, other than putting my son on their map. Whereas if he would not go now they simply won’t know about him. Yet at the same time even if he never goes with me and it comes time to go to Yeshiva there and has to get a student visa, there’s a very good chance they will suspect him of being Israeli (because I am, and I have traveled to EY multiple times) and he’ll have to get a פטור anyways. So why not just go now with him?

You can go with him. Until the end of 2022 they are allowing Israeli citizens who have foreign passports to travel in and out of Israel with a foreign passport. So you don't have a risk of not being able to leave now. But for everyone's sake, don't postpone it further and just go through the steps to officially renounce for yourself, your current and future children.

[CLEboy]

You can go with him. Until the end of 2022 they are allowing Israeli citizens who have foreign passports to travel in and out of Israel with a foreign passport. So you don't have a risk of not being able to leave now. But for everyone's sake, don't postpone it further and just go through the steps to officially renounce for yourself, your current and future children.

Agreed. Just curious where you live, I assume tri-state area? For me, living here in Cleveland presents a little more of a challenge because renouncing will mean a trip to NY and probably more than 1 trip, with the whole family.

[ExGingi]

Agreed. Just curious where you live, I assume tri-state area? For me, living here in Cleveland presents a little more of a challenge because renouncing will mean a trip to NY and probably more than 1 trip, with the whole family.

Indeed. I live in Brooklyn, and it's just a subway ride to get there. Talk to @Dan about that or post in the pros and cons of where you live thread. Officially minors do not need to be present for the first step which is registering them as Israeli citizens. You might want to make sure that your appointment is booked for the proper service - which would be registering children as citizens.

I guess your best bet is to come as prepared as possible, and be mentally ready to have to go more than once. Yet along with that don't take any of their bureaucracy without objection. They find it easy to say come again. I challenged them on two of their requests and they relented.

OTOH it's important to come well prepared. At my last visit there I met cousins who came from Philadelphia, and didn't know that they needed an Apostille on the birth certificate (and proof of birth - such as hospital discharge papers). Needless to say they weren't able to get off first base because they didn't have the necessary documents.

[CLEboy]

Indeed. Talk to @Dan about that or post in the pros and cons of where you live thread.

I guess your best bet is to come as prepared as possible, and be mentally ready to have to go more than once. Yet along with that don't take any of their bureaucracy without objection. They find it easy to say come again. I challenged them on two of their requests and they relented.

Yeah. Although I’m still leaning to the side of doing nothing and if we have to go through the פטור process later on so be it. It still seems like the easier route. Do you disagree with that? I know renouncing your citizenship washes your hands clean of the whole thing but in the end of the day who cares? It’s a headache either way so why not just go the easier way?

[ExGingi]

Yeah. Although I’m still leaning to the side of doing nothing and if we have to go through the פטור process later on so be it. It still seems like the easier route. Do you disagree with that? I know renouncing your citizenship washes your hands clean of the whole thing but in the end of the day who cares? It’s a headache either way so why not just go the easier way?

That thinking is what caused me to procrastinate for over 20 years (or more). I would begrudgingly pay VAT on my car rentals, have to waste time and money to make sure I have a valid passport, and tell my kids to give different details when asked about their parents. It worked until now. It might have worked further, but for the seminary my daughter registered for insisting on being 100% square (my boys had no problems when they went to yeshiva).

The funny thing is that I am doing it at a point in my life where my travels to Israel are likely to be much less going forward, as I have no immediate living family there.

[drosenberg88429]

That thinking is what caused me to procrastinate for over 20 years (or more). I would begrudgingly pay VAT on my car rentals, have to waste time and money to make sure I have a valid passport, and tell my kids to give different details when asked about their parents. It worked until now. It might have worked further, but for the seminary my daughter registered for insisting on being 100% square (my boys had no problems when they went to yeshiva).

The funny thing is that I am doing it at a point in my life where my travels to Israel are likely to be much less going forward, as I have no immediate living family there.

Not sure when your last son went to yeshiva, but the government seems to have cracked down in the last few years. They started insisting on original birth certificates in order to apply for a student visa about 3 years ago, in order to make it harder to change parental details to circumvent citizenship status tracking.