Mr. Moshe Vanounou Get Refuser?

[yoohoo]

So he refused to give a get because he had some financial demands? Why was he correlating the giving of the get to the business?

demands is a big word. Sometimes one is just looking for fairness instead of the wife using the circumstances to completely destroy her husband. It didn’t turn out well for her in this case. She kind of crushed the momentum of the get refuser pressure campaigns…..

[ckmk47]

He didn't refuse a get. He gave the get in bais din and they refused to pick it up until their demands were met. BIG difference.

If the bais din took his get, does that mean they agree with what he's offering? Or can a guy give his wife nothing and bais din will still accept the get?

[Euclid]

He didn't refuse a get. He gave the get in bais din and they refused to pick it up until their demands were met. BIG difference.

demands is a big word. Sometimes one is just looking for fairness instead of the wife using the circumstances to completely destroy her husband. It didn’t turn out well for her in this case. She kind of crushed the momentum of the get refuser pressure campaigns…..

Interesting, I hadn't heard about that he gave a get to B"D. Is that really what happened? That they were protesting but there was a get already sitting in BD? That seems weird

[zh cohen]

there was a get already sitting in BD

I have no idea what case you are talking about, but I know there were other cases where the husband claimed that there was a get in Beis din, but it was with a condition that the wife pay a huge amount of money. Also, the Beis din was one whose gitten were not widely accepted, so she might not have been able to use it to get married.

[moko]

If the bais din took his get, does that mean they agree with what he's offering? Or can a guy give his wife nothing and bais din will still accept the get?

all a Bais Din can demand is the kesuba and a woman does much better in the civil divorce than in Bais Din. Batai din acknowledge that.
There are rare cases where the husband extorts the wife for a get. And less rare cases that the husband uses the get as a bargaining chip in a custody argument.

[ckmk47]

I have no idea what case you are talking about, but I know there were other cases where the husband claimed that there was a get in Beis din, but it was with a condition that the wife pay a huge amount of money. Also, the Beis din was one whose gitten were not widely accepted, so she might not have been able to use it to get married.

You're aware of more than 1 such case?

[zh cohen]

You're aware of more than 1 such case?

I am thinking about one specific case. The "s" was a mistake.

[JMHO]

Wondering out loud,

Do folks here have an opinion they are not offering, or really want to 'like' a post in this thread, but are uncomfortable/hesitant to do so, since this is such a heated Parasha (especially) these days and it's 'safer' to just observe from a distance?

P.S. liking this post is allowed and will not count as an option on this topic 

[Euclid]

Wondering out loud,

Do folks here have an opinion they are not offering, or really want to 'like' a post in this thread, but are uncomfortable/hesitant to do so, since this is such a heated Parasha (especially) these days and it's 'safer' to just observe from a distance?

Or just here for the gossip

[thaber]

Wondering out loud,

Do folks here have an opinion they are not offering, or really want to 'like' a post in this thread, but are uncomfortable/hesitant to do so, since this is such a heated Parasha (especially) these days and it's 'safer' to just observe from a distance?

P.S. liking this post is allowed and will not count as an option on this topic 

If you're asking - My opinion is that my first hand knowledge includes all sides of this, husbands using the get as a custody bargaining chip, wives not accepting a get until financial demands are met etc. I would assume there are also some really evil bad apples on both sides holding back just because.
My personal feelings are that a get should never be used as a tool for anyone, and if they're not getting back together it should be given unconditionally and swiftly. Duke out the finances and custody separately. I know that is a rose colored glasses outlook, but it is the point of all the prenup efforts

[Dave321]

Interesting, I hadn't heard about that he gave a get to B"D. Is that really what happened? That they were protesting but there was a get already sitting in BD? That seems weird

The father in law refused to acknowledge his role in the business and took it from him even though he was running the day to day operations. Then he demanded S give child support for the kids. He said he's happy to if he gets his part of the business.
Bottom line efram refused to acknowledge this and instead immediately resorted to protests etc. They were separated for a very short time before the protests started. Even in a regular divorce there can be 1-2 years before it's all finalized. It was very suspicious that they immediately jumped to label him as a get refuser.

FIL also gives alot of money to eframs shul.

[PlatinumGuy]

all a Bais Din can demand is the kesuba and a woman does much better in the civil divorce than in Bais Din. Batai din acknowledge that.

I never understood what the heter to use a court for that is

[Lurker]

Unless you were the one to give him smicha, I'm not sure why you think you have the right to take it away.

[Euclid]

The father in law refused to acknowledge his role in the business and took it from him even though he was running the day to day operations. Then he demanded S give child support for the kids. He said he's happy to if he gets his part of the business.
Bottom line efram refused to acknowledge this and instead immediately resorted to protests etc. They were separated for a very short time before the protests started. Even in a regular divorce there can be 1-2 years before it's all finalized. It was very suspicious that they immediately jumped to label him as a get refuser.

FIL also gives alot of money to eframs shul.

I admittedly know a lot less about this story than you do apparently. There still seems to be something missing here; you're insinuating that a respected rabbi put his credibility on the line because of money. Not unheard of, but still seems like some part of the story is missing here.

[Dave321]

I admittedly know a lot less about this story than you do apparently. There still seems to be something missing here; you're insinuating that a respected rabbi put his credibility on the line because of money. Not unheard of, but still seems like some part of the story is missing here.

As I said before, the get was offered many times just the wife's side wasn't willing to give him his share of the business. If u watch eframs interview on the case you can hear him hint to it. He says a get can have 0 conditions. First give the get then we can talk. And as well all know, that won't end well.

[WAM]

First give the get then we can talk. And as well all know, that won't end well.

Sometimes. Other times that's fine and I'm personally familiar with at least 1 case where the get was given before the divorce agreement was signed. They used a mediator to put together the divorce agreement (which was then written properly by an attorney), got divorced legally without stepping into court and everything worked out nicely. The parents stayed out of the divorce.

Also, from everything that I hear (no first hand experience of this though), parents that get involved in their kid's divorce often make things MUCH worse. If there are no kids involved, then it's not so bad (relatively speaking). But when there are kids involved, people who egg on one side to make life difficult for the other side, often end up causing lifelong damage to the kids and will need to answer for that in a higher court.

Divorce makes sane ppl crazy.
If you ever have an opportunity to push a couple with kids toward a peaceful divorce, you will be doing a favor for the kids. You may not see the rewards in this world, but after 120, if you see what you offended, it'll be the greatest reward you could ask for.

[Dave321]

Sometimes. Other times that's fine and I'm personally familiar with at least 1 case where the get was given before the divorce agreement was signed. They used a mediator to put together the divorce agreement (which was then written properly by an attorney), got divorced legally without stepping into court and everything worked out nicely. The parents stayed out of the divorce.

Also, from everything that I hear (no first hand experience of this though), parents that get involved in their kid's divorce often make things MUCH worse. If there are no kids involved, then it's not so bad (relatively speaking). But when there are kids involved, people who egg on one side to make life difficult for the other side, often end up causing lifelong damage to the kids and will need to answer for that in a higher court.

Divorce makes sane ppl crazy.
If you ever have an opportunity to push a couple with kids toward a peaceful divorce, you will be doing a favor for the kids. You may not see the rewards in this world, but after 120, if you see what you offended, it'll be the greatest reward you could ask for.

of course every case is different.
In this case, the husband has 0 way of supporting himself or his kids if he gets fired from a partnership with his FIL. They took a business dispute, and use the get as a way to force him out of the business.
obviously its complicated story.

[avromie7]

If you're asking - My opinion is that my first hand knowledge includes all sides of this, husbands using the get as a custody bargaining chip, wives not accepting a get until financial demands are met etc. I would assume there are also some really evil bad apples on both sides holding back just because.
My personal feelings are that a get should never be used as a tool for anyone, and if they're not getting back together it should be given unconditionally and swiftly. Duke out the finances and custody separately. I know that is a rose colored glasses outlook, but it is the point of all the prenup efforts

This sounds great in theory, but in practice it's ludicrous for a man to give up the only tool he has to level the playing field against an unreasonable spouse. There are men who lost everything by giving a get before everything else is finalized.

[Dave321]

This sounds great in theory, but in practice it's ludicrous for a man to give up the only tool he has to level the playing field against an unreasonable spouse. There are men who lost everything by giving a get before everything else is finalized.

exactly this. There is a BIG difference to a get refuser and someone who is offering the get with a fair settlement.
There is a reason why the Instagram campaign fell apart. Many of the bloggers just jumped on the bandwagon without doing any research.

[zh cohen]

They took a business dispute, and use the get as a way to force him out of the business.

Based on your description of events it sounds like the husband was the one bringing the get into a business dispute.

Why should his dispute with his father in law about who owns the business have anything to do with him giving a get?