Author Topic: Kashrus of Chabad Shluchim  (Read 31525 times)

Offline lcm

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Re: Kashrus of Chabad Shluchim
« Reply #20 on: July 25, 2022, 07:53:06 PM »
Is there a way of knowing which chabad houses (official or not) are reliable? Is there a specific standard they all follow? Is there a list?
How do you define reliable?
If you are asking about commercial operations, most probably follow their personal standards, which are more or less standard within chabad.
There isn't an official list to my knowledge, unless you are asking if their hechsherim are on lists like crc, then check.
Usually, you can ask the shliach. I think most would trust what he tells you.

Offline ushdadude

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Re: Kashrus of Chabad Shluchim
« Reply #21 on: July 26, 2022, 12:16:53 PM »
Of course, a commercial kitchen of today isn't the same as an inn of yesteryear, but even so, you'd be hard pressed to find a shliach who's "commercial" operation is not just a very busy version of his personal kitchen.

I've likely posted this before, but there was a pizza store in CH that didn't have a hechsher. I asked my father (who ran a hechsher for 40+ years and was aware of the potential issues as much as anyone) and he said, "would you eat in the owner's house?"
"Yes."
"Then you can eat his pizza."




that's part of my question. most people don't know the sheluchim so can't answer that question.


I'm really just curious why people will ask if a hechsher is reliable but don't ask each shliach what their standards are.

Offline avromie7

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Re: Kashrus of Chabad Shluchim
« Reply #22 on: July 26, 2022, 12:21:51 PM »



that's part of my question. most people don't know the sheluchim so can't answer that question.


I'm really just curious why people will ask if a hechsher is reliable but don't ask each shliach what their standards are.
A shliach has a chezkas kashrus, an unkown hechsher does not.
I wonder what people who type "u" instead of "you" do with all their free time.

Offline ushdadude

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Re: Kashrus of Chabad Shluchim
« Reply #23 on: July 26, 2022, 12:27:05 PM »
A shliach has a chezkas kashrus, an unkown hechsher does not.


He has a chezkas kashrus that he holds of his level of kashrus to the best of his abilities. What level is that and how much does he know? That's why I originally asked if there is a set standard

Offline Yehuda57

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Re: Kashrus of Chabad Shluchim
« Reply #24 on: July 26, 2022, 12:27:52 PM »



that's part of my question. most people don't know the sheluchim so can't answer that question.


I'm really just curious why people will ask if a hechsher is reliable but don't ask each shliach what their standards are.

The point wasn't that I knew the owner personally - I didn't. The point was that he was a frum Jew who's house I'd eat in if I'd been invited. It's like JJ was saying, throughout history, when a Jew rocks up in a place and a frum Jew invites them to their house, they are trusted.

If your question is about eating a Shabbos meal, this holds true for Shluchim today just like it holds true if you visit any community across the world and eat in a stranger's house, and the fact that you're paying for the meal doesn't change their neemanus.

If your question is about Shluchim certifying manufacturing and industrial facilities, that is relying on complicated procedures and differing halachic opinions for which you would have to research in the same way you'd do research for any other hechsher - whatever that may be.

Offline ushdadude

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Re: Kashrus of Chabad Shluchim
« Reply #25 on: July 26, 2022, 12:34:26 PM »
The point wasn't that I knew the owner personally - I didn't. The point was that he was a frum Jew who's house I'd eat in if I'd been invited. It's like JJ was saying, throughout history, when a Jew rocks up in a place and a frum Jew invites them to their house, they are trusted.

If your question is about eating a Shabbos meal, this holds true for Shluchim today just like it holds true if you visit any community across the world and eat in a stranger's house, and the fact that you're paying for the meal doesn't change their neemanus.

If your question is about Shluchim certifying manufacturing and industrial facilities, that is relying on complicated procedures and differing halachic opinions for which you would have to research in the same way you'd do research for any other hechsher - whatever that may be.


So that pretty much answers my question. There is no standard and each sliach should be treated like a stranger.


I still don't think I fully understand though. Many sheluchim operate as a restaurant and I don't think anyone here would eat in a restaurant without a reliable hechsher. I could be wrong though.

Offline imayid2

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Re: Kashrus of Chabad Shluchim
« Reply #26 on: July 26, 2022, 12:35:39 PM »
The point wasn't that I knew the owner personally - I didn't. The point was that he was a frum Jew who's house I'd eat in if I'd been invited. It's like JJ was saying, throughout history, when a Jew rocks up in a place and a frum Jew invites them to their house, they are trusted.

If your question is about eating a Shabbos meal, this holds true for Shluchim today just like it holds true if you visit any community across the world and eat in a stranger's house, and the fact that you're paying for the meal doesn't change their neemanus.

If your question is about Shluchim certifying manufacturing and industrial facilities, that is relying on complicated procedures and differing halachic opinions for which you would have to research in the same way you'd do research for any other hechsher - whatever that may be.
Although this would be where the tvuos shor would come into play.

Offline avromie7

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Re: Kashrus of Chabad Shluchim
« Reply #27 on: July 26, 2022, 12:35:58 PM »

He has a chezkas kashrus that he holds of his level of kashrus to the best of his abilities. What level is that and how much does he know? That's why I originally asked if there is a set standard
Do you ask that every time you go to a kiddush or someones house for a meal?

See below from R' Reuven Feinstein.





I wonder what people who type "u" instead of "you" do with all their free time.

Offline imayid2

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Re: Kashrus of Chabad Shluchim
« Reply #28 on: July 26, 2022, 12:37:47 PM »
Do you ask that every time you go to a kiddush or someones house for a meal?
Thereís a difference when someone is selling something.

Offline ushdadude

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Re: Kashrus of Chabad Shluchim
« Reply #29 on: July 26, 2022, 12:41:03 PM »
Do you ask that every time you go to a kiddush or someones house for a meal?


Why are you comparing someone you know to a complete stranger?

Offline avromie7

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Re: Kashrus of Chabad Shluchim
« Reply #30 on: July 26, 2022, 12:43:42 PM »

Why are you comparing someone you know to a complete stranger?
Halachikly they are the same. Both have ne'emanus of eid echad.
I wonder what people who type "u" instead of "you" do with all their free time.

Offline Moshe Green

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Re: Kashrus of Chabad Shluchim
« Reply #31 on: July 26, 2022, 12:46:19 PM »
If your question is about Shluchim certifying manufacturing and industrial facilities, that is relying on complicated procedures and differing halachic opinions for which you would have to research in the same way you'd do research for any other hechsher - whatever that may be.
good point. todays modern manufacturing facilities are 100x as complicated as what was 50 years ago. if the shliach is relying on his own intuition or research to use certain local products, even though he would never serve treif on purpose, you may run into problems. but if all he uses are products with proper hechsherim you can probly just ask him what he uses and rely on that.

Offline imayid2

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Re: Kashrus of Chabad Shluchim
« Reply #32 on: July 26, 2022, 12:48:41 PM »
Do you ask that every time you go to a kiddush or someones house for a meal?
There are some pretty crazy stories about stuff that happened at kiddushim, especially when a party planner is involved etc. There was a big focus on this at the recent Ako conference, and I understand national Hashgachos are strongly pushing community awareness, and the need for some due diligence at a kiddush.

Offline ushdadude

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Re: Kashrus of Chabad Shluchim
« Reply #33 on: July 26, 2022, 12:48:59 PM »
good point. todays modern manufacturing facilities are 100x as complicated as what was 50 years ago. if the shliach is relying on his own intuition or research to use certain local products, even though he would never serve treif on purpose, you may run into problems. but if all he uses are products with proper hechsherim you can probly just ask him what he uses and rely on that.


agreed. the OU uses plenty of sheluchim as mashgichim but teaches them their standard.

Offline ushdadude

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Re: Kashrus of Chabad Shluchim
« Reply #34 on: July 26, 2022, 12:49:56 PM »
Halachikly they are the same. Both have ne'emanus of eid echad.


you're missing my point. I'm not saying you can't trust the sheliach. I'm saying that you know your friend's standard, more or less. You know nothing about the seliach's standards.

Offline Yehuda57

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Re: Kashrus of Chabad Shluchim
« Reply #35 on: July 26, 2022, 01:02:55 PM »

So that pretty much answers my question. There is no standard and each sliach should be treated like a stranger.


So a few points.

Let's take a step back and think about what the question is: Can I trust the kashrus of someone who uprooted themselves from life in a frum environment and sacrifices a heck of a lot for the sole purpose of enabling as many Jews as possible to fulfill more mitzvos like kashrus?

Now, let's look at the SHluchim in live in remote places where kosher meat, chalav yisroel dairy, and all the everyday groceries with hechsherim we take for granted are not available. What do they eat themselves? My in-laws who live in Nebraska love to joke about the most frequent question they get from frum people, "what do you do for meat?"

They don't eat meat. They don't have cheese. They don't have milk. They have massive chest freezers where they store as much as they can, but they can go for extended periods of time without much of these things. Many say the R' Moshe's heter for CS applies ONLY in cases like Shluchim where CY is not available, yet even there, Shluchim will only eat CY. In many places meat IS available, but it doesn't meet (sorrynotsorry) the standards the shluchim keep, even though most frum communities would eat it without questioning, the Shluchim go without.

So is trusting a shliach like trusting any frum  "stranger"? Sure, if every frum stranger is moser nefesh daily for mitzvos in general and kashrus quite specifically.


I still don't think I fully understand though. Many sheluchim operate as a restaurant and I don't think anyone here would eat in a restaurant without a reliable hechsher. I could be wrong though.

The vast majority of shluchim who are selling food or catering meals run it out of their own Chabad House kitchens. Even if the kitchen is huge and has half a dozen employees, it's still running according to the same rules they would run their own kitchen.

Your point about not eating in a restaurant without a hechsher is a bit of a misnomer. Because of the nature of modern restaurants, hechserim and supervision are often needed (not always, but often). And so we've created the hashgacha system, and many places have local agencies in place that we trust to oversee things. If a restaurant opens and goes against community norms and doesn't get a hechsher, that in and of itself is a reason to worry, even if it is the type of place that wouldn't need a hechsher strictly speaking. (IIUC, that's what the Tevuas Shor is referring too).

Shluchim operating full fledged restaurants that aren't like glorified home kitchen are doing so in places without that communal infrastructure or hashgacha in place. In fact, if the city would have a hechsher, it would be run by the same shliach! Now, if a shliach opened a restaurant in a place with established norms and a single hecsher in place and they refused to get that hechsher, I would in all likelihood not trust that.


Offline jj1000

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Re: Kashrus of Chabad Shluchim
« Reply #36 on: July 26, 2022, 01:15:22 PM »
So a few points.

Let's take a step back and think about what the question is: Can I trust the kashrus of someone who uprooted themselves from life in a frum environment and sacrifices a heck of a lot for the sole purpose of enabling as many Jews as possible to fulfill more mitzvos like kashrus?

Now, let's look at the SHluchim in live in remote places where kosher meat, chalav yisroel dairy, and all the everyday groceries with hechsherim we take for granted are not available. What do they eat themselves? My in-laws who live in Nebraska love to joke about the most frequent question they get from frum people, "what do you do for meat?"

They don't eat meat. They don't have cheese. They don't have milk. They have massive chest freezers where they store as much as they can, but they can go for extended periods of time without much of these things. Many say the R' Moshe's heter for CS applies ONLY in cases like Shluchim where CY is not available, yet even there, Shluchim will only eat CY. In many places meat IS available, but it doesn't meet (sorrynotsorry) the standards the shluchim keep, even though most frum communities would eat it without questioning, the Shluchim go without.

So is trusting a shliach like trusting any frum  "stranger"? Sure, if every frum stranger is moser nefesh daily for mitzvos in general and kashrus quite specifically.
So you vouched for you in-laws, are you vouching for every shliach under the Chabad umbrella?

I don't see how anyone can do that without  knowing them all.

Simplest things to do it just ask if anyone knows this shliach etc.

(But I do like your logic of it and personally it'd work for me, but I understand why someone not in the know would be concerned.)
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Offline Yehuda57

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Re: Kashrus of Chabad Shluchim
« Reply #37 on: July 26, 2022, 01:28:51 PM »
So you vouched for you in-laws, are you vouching for every shliach under the Chabad umbrella?

I don't see how anyone can do that without  knowing them all.

Simplest things to do it just ask if anyone knows this shliach etc.

(But I do like your logic of it and personally it'd work for me, but I understand why someone not in the know would be concerned.)

Firstly, stop with the false accusations. I didn't vouch for my in laws, I just mentioned a joke they often share.

Halacha establishes that every Yid has neemanus whether you know them or not. I'm just pointing out a bit of irony in asking this question about a group of people who largely live in remote areas and are moser nefesh for the very mitzvah you're questioning if they can be trusted with. (In places with other places selling food, there usually isn't a need for the shliach to be doing it)

Offline imayid2

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Re: Kashrus of Chabad Shluchim
« Reply #38 on: July 26, 2022, 01:37:55 PM »
Halacha establishes that every Yid has neemanus whether you know them or not.
This isnít nearly as simple as you are portraying it in regards to buying food from someone you donít know personally.

Offline neveryou

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Re: Kashrus of Chabad Shluchim
« Reply #39 on: July 26, 2022, 01:38:11 PM »
I've seen some shluchim have roll gold pretzels, tuna that isn't bishul yisroel....