Author Topic: Kashrus of Chabad Shluchim  (Read 31526 times)

Offline Yehuda57

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Re: Kashrus of Chabad Shluchim
« Reply #220 on: September 20, 2022, 10:50:45 PM »
So a few points.

Let's take a step back and think about what the question is: Can I trust the kashrus of someone who uprooted themselves from life in a frum environment and sacrifices a heck of a lot for the sole purpose of enabling as many Jews as possible to fulfill more mitzvos like kashrus?

Now, let's look at the Shluchim in live in remote places where kosher meat, chalav yisroel dairy, and all the everyday groceries with hechsherim we take for granted are not available. What do they eat themselves? My in-laws who live in Nebraska love to joke about the most frequent question they get from frum people, "what do you do for meat?"

They don't eat meat. They don't have cheese. They don't have milk. They have massive chest freezers where they store as much as they can, but they can go for extended periods of time without much of these things. Many say the R' Moshe's heter for CS applies ONLY in cases like Shluchim where CY is not available, yet even there, Shluchim will only eat CY. In many places meat IS available, but it doesn't meet (sorrynotsorry) the standards the shluchim keep, even though most frum communities would eat it without questioning, the Shluchim go without.

So is trusting a shliach like trusting any frum  "stranger"? Sure, if every frum stranger is moser nefesh daily for mitzvos in general and kashrus quite specifically.

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Re: Kashrus of Chabad Shluchim
« Reply #221 on: September 20, 2022, 11:14:05 PM »
Trying to find a way to say this correctly, but I'll probably fail...

I grew up on shlichus, in a place with pretty much nothing, and a family with extremely high standards. Having lived that life, and having many friends who have lived that life, and having met countless people in that life, I'd say that shluchim in general have a chezkas kashrus. That being said, the blanket statements above basically bestowing sainthood on every single one... let's just say it rubs me a little wrong. There have been more than a few instances of either lowered standards, or even varying levels of going OTD. To be clear, they are an extreme exception and a tiny percentage of shluchim. I'm just not digging the blind trust "cuz mesiras nefesh" line.

My take on the whole thing is to treat shluchim like you would anyone else's house. In the absence of hashgacha or firsthand personal knowledge, ask. Whether that means asking the shliach himself, or calling some people for references, or whatever it is you do before you eat at someone's house, do that. I'm not quite sure why it needs to be more complicated than that.
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Offline jj1000

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Re: Kashrus of Chabad Shluchim
« Reply #222 on: September 21, 2022, 12:12:56 AM »
Trying to find a way to say this correctly, but I'll probably fail...

I grew up on shlichus, in a place with pretty much nothing, and a family with extremely high standards. Having lived that life, and having many friends who have lived that life, and having met countless people in that life, I'd say that shluchim in general have a chezkas kashrus. That being said, the blanket statements above basically bestowing sainthood on every single one... let's just say it rubs me a little wrong. There have been more than a few instances of either lowered standards, or even varying levels of going OTD. To be clear, they are an extreme exception and a tiny percentage of shluchim. I'm just not digging the blind trust "cuz mesiras nefesh" line.

My take on the whole thing is to treat shluchim like you would anyone else's house. In the absence of hashgacha or firsthand personal knowledge, ask. Whether that means asking the shliach himself, or calling some people for references, or whatever it is you do before you eat at someone's house, do that. I'm not quite sure why it needs to be more complicated than that.
And with that said, out of some 5,000+ chabad institutions, do you know any stories of a shliach serving non kosher? Because that's what the discussion here is about.

At the end of the day, I think everyone is agreeing
I think at the end of the day, it's likely about who you know and knowing what their standards are.
And of course ask when in any doubt.
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Re: Kashrus of Chabad Shluchim
« Reply #223 on: September 21, 2022, 12:17:01 AM »
And with that said, out of some 5,000+ chabad institutions, do you know any stories of a shliach serving non kosher?

Actually, yes. A mushroom who went crazy.

Because that's what the discussion here is about.

But it's not. This conversation started before the Manalapan story, and wasn't talking about treif. I dont think that was even a thought in anyone's mind before Manalapan broke.
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Offline jj1000

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Re: Kashrus of Chabad Shluchim
« Reply #224 on: September 21, 2022, 12:26:18 AM »
Actually, yes. A mushroom who went crazy.
Let me guess a mushroom who opened near your father? 🤣

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Re: Kashrus of Chabad Shluchim
« Reply #225 on: September 21, 2022, 12:37:14 AM »
Let me guess a mushroom who opened near your father? 🤣

Lol! Nah, where he lives isn't exotic enough for mushrooms to grow.
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Offline Yehuda57

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Re: Kashrus of Chabad Shluchim
« Reply #226 on: September 21, 2022, 12:43:35 AM »
Actually, yes. A mushroom who went crazy.



The one who makes kiddush and a seudah on Tisha b'av?

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Re: Kashrus of Chabad Shluchim
« Reply #227 on: September 21, 2022, 12:49:52 AM »
The one who makes kiddush and a seudah on Tisha b'av?

Yep.
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Offline jj1000

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Re: Kashrus of Chabad Shluchim
« Reply #228 on: September 21, 2022, 12:54:54 AM »
Yep.
That's like saying Rabbi Sally hung up a sign on her temple that she's Chabad and using it as an example of it happened once :P
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Offline Yehuda57

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Re: Kashrus of Chabad Shluchim
« Reply #229 on: September 21, 2022, 12:56:01 AM »
Yep.

Come on, anyone who this thread would apply to? I don't put him b'geder mushroom anyway.

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Re: Kashrus of Chabad Shluchim
« Reply #230 on: September 21, 2022, 01:04:31 AM »
That's like saying Rabbi Sally hung up a sign on her temple that she's Chabad and using it as an example of it happened once :P
Come on, anyone who this thread would apply to? I don't put him b'geder mushroom anyway.

It's not, because the guy wasn't always crazy, and it didn't happen overnight. Was he trustworthy 6 months before he decided 9 Av is now a yomtov? A year? 5 years?

It doesn't actually matter. The point is, shluchim are not a monolith. They are unique individuals, often driven by common goals. No one here would think to ask, "Can I trust the kashrus of Bobover chassidim," or "Is it ok to eat by BMG kollel yungerleit?" While those groups may have earned a certain level of trust, everyone here would do their research on the individual in question, whatever that means to them.
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Offline EliJelly

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Re: Kashrus of Chabad Shluchim
« Reply #231 on: September 21, 2022, 01:12:05 AM »
Let me try to guess this right. The guy who celebrates Tisha b'Av as a yomtiv is also serving non kosher -pork- because עתיד חזיר ליטהר?? :)

Offline moko

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Re: Kashrus of Chabad Shluchim
« Reply #232 on: September 21, 2022, 08:36:27 AM »
It's not, because the guy wasn't always crazy, and it didn't happen overnight. Was he trustworthy 6 months before he decided 9 Av is now a yomtov? A year? 5 years?

It doesn't actually matter. The point is, shluchim are not a monolith. They are unique individuals, often driven by common goals. Many No one here would think to ask, "Can I trust the kashrus of Bobover chassidim," or "Is it ok to eat by BMG kollel yungerleit?" should I eat at a restaurant based out of someone's home with no formal hashgacha.

FTFY

Offline JMHO

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Re: Kashrus of Chabad Shluchim
« Reply #233 on: September 21, 2022, 08:45:34 AM »
do you know any stories of a shliach serving non kosher? Because that's what the discussion here is about.
I think the discussion is more about standards than kosher vs non kosher.

Offline jj1000

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Re: Kashrus of Chabad Shluchim
« Reply #234 on: September 21, 2022, 09:50:53 AM »
But it's not. This conversation started before the Manalapan story, and wasn't talking about treif. I dont think that was even a thought in anyone's mind before Manalapan broke.
I think the discussion is more about standards than kosher vs non kosher.
I agree. I absolutely transferred Manalapin thread to this one. You can see earlier I got into details on that.
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Offline Yehuda57

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Re: Kashrus of Chabad Shluchim
« Reply #235 on: September 21, 2022, 10:07:57 AM »
It's not, because the guy wasn't always crazy, and it didn't happen overnight. Was he trustworthy 6 months before he decided 9 Av is now a yomtov? A year? 5 years?

It doesn't actually matter. The point is, shluchim are not a monolith. They are unique individuals, often driven by common goals. No one here would think to ask, "Can I trust the kashrus of Bobover chassidim," or "Is it ok to eat by BMG kollel yungerleit?" While those groups may have earned a certain level of trust, everyone here would do their research on the individual in question, whatever that means to them.

Even a short 30 second conversation with the guy, at any stage during his "flip out", would reveal exactly what you're dealing with. I don't think anyone is saying to blindly trust all Shluchim because many of them have mesiras nefesh. Obviously you should speak to the person involved, and/or someone who has been there. But I maintain that on the whole, in places which are remote that there is no hashgacha/kosher infrastructure, you can be sure the Shliach isn't "slumming" it out there without keeping pretty high standards.

Anyone who has chumras or minhagim which are uncommonly strict is not blindly eating at a random Chabad House anyway. This discussion is for people who are trusting of local hashgachos and are wondering about Chabad Houses which do not have a local hashgacha to be certified by.

I do believe, tying onto the other thread, that a third party overseer, such as AKO, could be very helpful in this regard. A Shliach could become a member at relatively low cost and be certified to be following certain protocols and procedures.

Offline jj1000

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Re: Kashrus of Chabad Shluchim
« Reply #236 on: September 21, 2022, 10:09:59 AM »
I do believe, tying onto the other thread, that a third party overseer, such as AKO, could be very helpful in this regard. A Shliach could become a member at relatively low cost and be certified to be following certain protocols and procedures.
Can we tie this thread in now?

 ;)
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Offline ushdadude

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Re: Kashrus of Chabad Shluchim
« Reply #237 on: September 21, 2022, 10:46:51 AM »
So is someone like Maui Kosher a "mushroom," official Chabad house, or just a guy with a farm and he happens to be Chabad?

Offline Dan

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Re: Kashrus of Chabad Shluchim
« Reply #238 on: September 21, 2022, 10:51:38 AM »
So is someone like Maui Kosher a "mushroom," official Chabad house, or just a guy with a farm and he happens to be Chabad?
Started off as the latter. (Can I make Chabad farmer jokes in this thread or just in the AALA thread?)

But he effectively became a mushroom due to local community demand and is now outperforming the local official Chabad. I think the official local Chabad House took him to bais din, though I can't imagine they could do anything other than saying not to call himself a Chabad House?

And yes, I spoke to him and I'd trust his kashrus.
« Last Edit: September 21, 2022, 11:05:22 AM by Dan »
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Offline Yehuda57

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Re: Kashrus of Chabad Shluchim
« Reply #239 on: September 21, 2022, 10:57:40 AM »
So is someone like Maui Kosher a "mushroom," official Chabad house, or just a guy with a farm and he happens to be Chabad?

I think he calls himself the latter, though that is effectively the same as being a mushroom.


And yes, I spoke to him and I'd trust his kashrus.

I'd second this, though I'm related, so maybe I can't be trusted?